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neilb 06-29-2018 04:20 AM

dc tig mild steel
 
i'm having a little trouble with my tig, it welds as though there is no gas, the electrode burns up like it would as if the gas was off. i do have gas flow, pre - during - post welding. doesn't matter which type of electrode i use lanthanated, ceriated, zirconated. i have a gas lens fitted, i recently fitted a gas dryer in the feed line in case of moisture. i'm using and have always used argon/co2 mix, i only weld mild steel. machine is a uni mig 200 a/c

anyone have any ideas? i'm about to change to pure argon just to try it

2lateagain 06-29-2018 04:32 AM

Have you got the polarity around the right way for TIG, positive to earth.


Graham

Bevelhead 06-29-2018 04:58 AM

Dead give away for burning back is incorrect polarity. Also check the lens is not contaminated with spatter

neilb 06-29-2018 05:27 AM

thanks for the quick reply guy's

i can definately say the polarity is correct, i've had this tig about 6 years now and it's only recently it's started to weld like crap lol. i shall check the gas lens and maybe try another. it doesn't get used much to be honest, probably an hour of welding a month at most. so it's hard to pin point when and what, if anything occured when it started going wrong (gas lens fitted, new bottle of gas)

hot rivet 06-29-2018 06:03 AM

If you are tig welding steel with anything other than argon you are going to have problems, CO2 is not an inert gas and that will be part of your problem. From experience tig ceramics will absorb moisture and other chemicals even when they appear dry they can outgas whatever it is they absorbed. Poor storage of you torch may have caused the gas pipe to collapse / get pin holes either restricting gas flow or allowing air in. The other very common problem is bad earth due to cable breakage or clamp making poor contact (arced surfaces)

mastuart 06-29-2018 10:13 AM

You need argon for tig.

Turbo57 06-29-2018 03:06 PM

I think pure argon is better for stainless steel i have more prob when i weld mild steel with that, i dont know what the name is in your country but here it is called Mison and and that is argon with co2, your problem must be something other not the gas:confused:

hot rivet 06-29-2018 04:31 PM

The problem is almost certainly the co2 it breaks down in the arc to form carbon monoxide and oxygen- the oxygen reacts with the tungsten and the steel = porosity and dirty tungsten.

norson 06-29-2018 04:43 PM

Even though you are sure.... double check the polarity. I had the same things happening and that was the problem.

Gareth Davies 06-29-2018 05:12 PM

The gas hose sometimes splits inside the handle, due to the amount of manipulation, and this can allow air to get dragged in. Itís an easy one to check.

BTromblay 06-30-2018 12:03 AM

Hi,

Turn the gas flow up real high, strike an arc, left off the pedal and check for gas flow. You should feel it.

elavir 06-30-2018 01:57 AM

Recently I had problems like you describe and it was the gas coupler on the machine with the hose. Changed it with a new one and welded like new. You can let the gas output maesured by the dealer .
Cheers Richard.

neilb 06-30-2018 03:48 AM

thanks for all the suggestions guy's, to be honest i agree about using pure argon, i know you get a much better weld with it but i have been using argon mix ever sinse i started this car and it's only recently it's started to be a pain in the preverbial. it could be down to the electrodes, i'm not sure if there are any shite quality tig electrodes out there, i'm guessing there are... i will inspect the coupler at the machine, it's a quick release type but i know i get gas out at the torch end, i can hear and feel it, after that it'll be another torch lead, gas bottle, machine lol

Rick Mullin 06-30-2018 07:55 AM

I would agree that it is a gas problem. My first thought was bad gas but you said you have not made any changes ( new gas bottle, different gas mix, new tungsten). I have never heard of gas going bad in a bottle with extended time but one never knows. Some of those bottles date back to WWII. Try switching to a pure Argon bottle. I would be looking for damage to the gas system, primarily the torch. Typically a leak is not going to draw atmospheric gas in but reduce the amount of forced gas. Although you say you can hear gas coming out, it is probably insufficient. Take the cover off your torch hoses and inspect it for holes or crimping. As the plastic lines age, they can harden. I had a TIG in my garage at home for years. It hung on a hook. With time and seasonal temperature changes a crimp developed in the line and it caused a problem similar to what you are describing.

I would suggest switching to pure Argon as the gas of choice for all of your general needs.

neilb 06-30-2018 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Mullin (Post 147315)
I would agree that it is a gas problem. My first thought was bad gas but you said you have not made any changes ( new gas bottle, different gas mix, new tungsten). I have never heard of gas going bad in a bottle with extended time but one never knows. Some of those bottles date back to WWII. Try switching to a pure Argon bottle. I would be looking for damage to the gas system, primarily the torch. Typically a leak is not going to draw atmospheric gas in but reduce the amount of forced gas. Although you say you can hear gas coming out, it is probably insufficient. Take the cover off your torch hoses and inspect it for holes or crimping. As the plastic lines age, they can harden. I had a TIG in my garage at home for years. It hung on a hook. With time and seasonal temperature changes a crimp developed in the line and it caused a problem similar to what you are describing.

I would suggest switching to pure Argon as the gas of choice for all of your general needs.

sorry just to clarify, i fitted a new bottle (exhanged for full) but it was around the same time i changed to a gas lens. i don't use it that often so it's hard to pin point what's wrong and when it happened, i also changed electrodes at the time i fitted the gas lens. i will inspect the hoses tomorrow and have a laugh, i mean a look lol.

thanks for all the suggestions guy's

Rick Mullin 06-30-2018 01:01 PM

If you put on a new bottle and think that the problem occurred around the same time, I would put my money on a contaminated bottle. I have encountered contaminated gas bottles several times in my career and it makes for an impossible weld. Very similar to what you described. Unless thoroughly and visibly contaminated, I doubt that a gas lens is the problem. Nor do I believe that all of your choices of tungsten could be bad. I have never encountered a badly manufactured tungsten. I come back to contaminated or insufficient gas.

hot rivet 06-30-2018 01:07 PM

Is your gas Ar+CO2 or is it Ar+CO2+O2 Neither are right for tig but if the gas has upto 5% o2 (as is common on mig welding) you're never going to have any luck with tungstens

neilb 07-01-2018 07:31 AM

thanks guy's, i am going to change the bottle tomorrow, it's most likely the gas it's just hard to pin point it due to the time frame. my moisture trap is still blue with no visible signs of pink anywhere so no moisture showing yet. this is the first bottle i've had trouble with in 5 years (all have been ar/co2 mix) but it can happen so i'll swap it and see.

thanks for the response's guy's i'll update on the outcome

lots2learn 07-01-2018 10:41 AM

I have never seen a weld spec with Boeing or the Air Force called out to use any CO2 with TIG. Argon and or Helium yes. I have used many different gas mixes with MIG though. Im only 99% sure so you can do some more checking. CO2 is not an inert gas.

truck guy 07-01-2018 04:36 PM

Your problem is 100% your gas mix. Pure argon for steel and stainless, aluminum also but in some cases using a helium mix is better for heavy applications.

Oldnek 07-02-2018 09:06 AM

FWIW, I have used Mig gas with the TIG to get out of trouble when I ran out of Argon, it welds OK, other than it firing sparks like a fuse of dynamite.:lol:
Never had any increase in tungsten burn back. A little more instability in Arc, but nothing to worry about
My thoughts would be AC Balance is set to much for DC or polarity, Although Neil has mentioned he has used it previously without issue.

fabricator 07-02-2018 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neilb (Post 147290)
i'm having a little trouble with my tig, it welds as though there is no gas, the electrode burns up like it would as if the gas was off. i do have gas flow, pre - during - post welding. doesn't matter which type of electrode i use lanthanated, ceriated, zirconated. i have a gas lens fitted, i recently fitted a gas dryer in the feed line in case of moisture. i'm using and have always used argon/co2 mix, i only weld mild steel. machine is a uni mig 200 a/c

anyone have any ideas? i'm about to change to pure argon just to try it

Neil, I tried this today on 16G mild steel sheet, all scale removed, and wiped down with Acetone.
Pure argon , near perfect welds, no problem at all, changed over to argon/ co2 mig gas, not good , tiny bubbles ,craters ,and the tungsten picking up cr@p.In my opinion , for what it's worth, mixed gas doesn't work for me either.
Just another thought, I Scotchbrite the copper coating off my filler rods, then wipe down, this seems to stop the bubbles anyway.
Cheers,
Fab.

ozcad 07-02-2018 05:28 PM

I don't know who's brand of gas you are using but I have changed over from rental bottles to owning my own and couldn't be happier. An E size argon from Pacific Gas (no affiliation, just happy customer) is $220 outright and $80 for refill.

Rod S. 07-02-2018 10:56 PM

Wrong Gas
 
I have been a welder repair tech for 21years. WRONG GAS Pure argon Pure argon Pure argon for mild steel...ÖÖ.. I have heard many guys tell me they have always used a mix ar/co2 for tig and they are wrong...Ö..

Oldnek 07-03-2018 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozcad (Post 147369)
I don't know who's brand of gas you are using but I have changed over from rental bottles to owning my own and couldn't be happier. An E size argon from Pacific Gas (no affiliation, just happy customer) is $220 outright and $80 for refill.

G Day Peter,
Definitely owning your bottles is the way to go. Over the last 7 years I have saved myself over $3200 in rentals.
Your gas seems very cheap, with that price, that's not for a D Size bottle by any chance.
I use Speedgas and there price is $445 outright and $145 Refill for the E Size.
G Argon refill is $175.
Cant wait till they do the Oxy/Accet bottles.

ozcad 07-03-2018 03:31 PM

Hi John, $220 outright and $80 refill is definitely the price for E size 100% Argon. I own all my bottles including my oxy acetylene bottles. All from Pacific Gas. After paying BOC "bunch of chaps"(forum friendly nickname) so much rent over so many years, I couldn't be happier. I could look up what I paid for my other bottles if you'd like.

ozcad 07-03-2018 03:40 PM

To bring this thread back on topic and to agree with many previous posters, Argon mix is not the go for tig. Neil, I have a unimig 200 ac/dc like you and never had any success with Argon mix (yeah, I tried using my mig bottle). I think you should try straight Argon before anything else.

neilb 07-04-2018 04:41 AM

wow! this thead got active lol

i know what everyone is saying about using pure argon, and to a degree i know what should be used i too have been welding a long time. this is not a new hobby for me.

rod s. i get you are a little passionate when it comes to your trade and career but the facts remain i have used argon/co2 mix with tig, as a couple have stated on this thread it works to a degree.

i will ad my logic to this, it's no gaurantee what percentage of mix gas's you get, maybe this bottle i have has way more co2 than it should, maybe it has a percentage of o2? who knows.

ozcad, i get my gas from supagas, i called them to change to argon and i have been intouch with pacific gas after getting a refill price from supagas. $143 refill price for an 'E' size bottle from pacific. $396 initial price for the first full bottle, then just refill price no rental so i am switching. thanks for heads up on that company. a friend in NSW has his own bottle but they don't cover VIC

Rick Mullin 07-21-2018 06:31 AM

With all of us caught up in telling you to change to Argon (myself included), we may have lost track of the original question. Have you resolved the problem and if so, what did you discover. Gas, leak, tungsten...?

ekdave1962 07-21-2018 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozcad (Post 147381)
Hi John, $220 outright and $80 refill is definitely the price for E size 100% Argon. I own all my bottles including my oxy acetylene bottles. All from Pacific Gas. After paying BOC "bunch of chaps"(forum friendly nickname) so much rent over so many years, I couldn't be happier. I could look up what I paid for my other bottles if you'd like.

Geez thats cheap as i paid 475 for my bottle and 175 a refill from total tools

neilb 07-21-2018 07:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Mullin (Post 147710)
With all of us caught up in telling you to change to Argon (myself included), we may have lost track of the original question. Have you resolved the problem and if so, what did you discover. Gas, leak, tungsten...?

hi rick, i have switched to argon, it was delivered and as i said i don't use it that often but i have welded the engine lid frame together over this week and the end of last week. i have left the gas lens on along with the pyrex cup, the gas is set at 10cfm, inside a building so no strong winds and very little if any breeze. i still have arc wander but nowhere near it was before. i do have gas flow pre, during, and post. i still have the dryer in the feed line and plan on removing that this week after getting some more feed pipe. i can start with a sharpened tungsten with a shallow point not a long tapered point, after a few minutes i get a small point appear at the end and not long after that i will get some arc wander.

having said all that the amperage is very low, i do sharpen the tungsten along its length not in circular pattern around the rod.

neilb 07-21-2018 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekdave1962 (Post 147712)
Geez thats cheap as i paid 475 for my bottle and 175 a refill from total tools

hey dave, i spoke to pacific gas and he has said they are priced to be a little cheaper than total tools.

ekdave1962 07-21-2018 04:29 PM

wow thats more than a little cheaper
total tools is supplied by Speedgas WELDING GAS NEW ARGON E SIZE

SPEEDGAS WELDING GAS NEW ARGON E SIZE
SKU..121009
$479

SPEEDGAS WELDING GAS EXCHANGE ARGON E SIZE
SKU..121010
$159

You guys in usa must be lol your heads off at the proces we have to pay , has only been a few years that we have been able to buy cylinder before that we paid 3 to 400 pa rental for each bottle

neilb 07-21-2018 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ekdave1962 (Post 147726)
wow thats more than a little cheaper
total tools is supplied by Speedgas WELDING GAS NEW ARGON E SIZE

SPEEDGAS WELDING GAS NEW ARGON E SIZE
SKU..121009
$479

SPEEDGAS WELDING GAS EXCHANGE ARGON E SIZE
SKU..121010
$159

You guys in usa must be lol your heads off at the proces we have to pay , has only been a few years that we have been able to buy cylinder before that we paid 3 to 400 pa rental for each bottle

hey dave, this was an email i got from matt at pacific gas:-

Thanks for the image Neil.



This is an Argon mix (with CO2) E size bottle as mentioned.

Our E-size Argon and Argon mix bottles are all the same price online.



We donít have a direct replacement for your mix (argon 10) but we have the following:



Argon 5/2 Argon (93%), CO2 (5%) Oxygen (2%)

Argon 80/20 Argon (80%), CO2 (20%)

Argon Argon (100%)



These retail for $446 inc GST (less our Welcome50 promo) less $50 = $396 inc E size bottle with Gas in it.



Please feel free to let me know and I can arrange this for you as soon as possible.





Kind Regards,



Matt Copplestone

and a great guy too, delivered my bottle to my work :)

Blackfinger 05-03-2019 02:59 AM

Bump
 
Just to tag this along.Bunnings is using Coregas now.For a Trade n Go D size Argon its $99 exchange.
https://www.bunnings.com.au/coregas-...n-gas_p5910384


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