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-   -   Tigwelding with Flux (https://allmetalshaping.com/showthread.php?t=16672)

Ben 04-28-2017 06:06 AM

Tigwelding with Flux
 
Hi all ,

having difficulties with a full penetration welding 1mm aluminum sheet I got this idea I have bin walking arround with for several years and finally tried it.

I used a very small amount of flux on the backside of a test piece using normal tig welding.

You can see at the foto's that the back has a good penetration..

The only thing I don't know if the fumes are more toxic then with gaswelding aluminum..

So that is the question,is there anybody with an answer on this..
http://www.allmetalshaping.com/pictu...ictureid=18220

Front of the weld .I hammered it out to see the strenght..

http://www.allmetalshaping.com/pictu...ictureid=18219

Back of the weld you can see FULL penetration here and no cracks after the hammering..
Thanks

Ben

crystallographic 04-28-2017 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben (Post 136191)
Hi all ,

having difficulties with a full penetration welding 1mm aluminum sheet I got this idea I have bin walking arround with for several years and finally tried it.

I used a very small amount of flux on the backside of a test piece using normal tig welding.

You can see at the foto's that the back has a good penetration..

The only thing I don't know if the fumes are more toxic then with gaswelding aluminum..

So that is the question,is there anybody with an answer on this..
http://www.allmetalshaping.com/pictu...ictureid=18220

Front of the weld .I hammered it out to see the strenght..

http://www.allmetalshaping.com/pictu...ictureid=18219

Back of the weld you can see FULL penetration here and no cracks after the hammering..
Thanks

Ben

Yes, that is an old proven method.
Avoid breathing the fumes - a small fan can help to pull them away from your head.

Ben 04-28-2017 01:19 PM

Thanks Kent,

appreciate it

Ben

Maxakarudy 04-28-2017 02:33 PM

Ben,
I'm not a super duper tig welder, but I'm sure getting good penetration is well within your capabilities, it could be lots of reasons & I'm sure there are lots of guys on here that could help.
If you could let us know the settings on your machine & torch that would help.

crystallographic 04-28-2017 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben (Post 136205)
Thanks Kent,

appreciate it

Ben

Glad to help, Ben.
Aside from the solid smooth penetration there is also the increased weld density. For doing tank welding there will be fewer leaks - something that has plagued the tig forever, and at the highest welding levels.

Rick Mullin 04-29-2017 08:02 AM

Are you using standard aluminum welding flux for oxy-acet.? I tried that years ago and had problems with cracking on the back side. What about flux entrapment? Perhaps I will experiment tomorrow. I started my career using exclusively oxy-acet. and was very proficient. Most of my panel welding was fusion welding without filler wire. I had one very big job come back with a flux entrapment problem and switched to TIG. Fix a job for free and you learn quickly. Any tips that you want to offer up before I try would be appreciated.


Rick

crystallographic 04-29-2017 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Mullin (Post 136237)
Are you using standard aluminum welding flux for oxy-acet.? I tried that years ago and had problems with cracking on the back side. What about flux entrapment? Perhaps I will experiment tomorrow. I started my career using exclusively oxy-acet. and was very proficient. Most of my panel welding was fusion welding without filler wire. I had one very big job come back with a flux entrapment problem and switched to TIG. Fix a job for free and you learn quickly. Any tips that you want to offer up before I try would be appreciated.

Rick

Hi Rick,
I think I understand your conundrum with the flux and tig. Because so many have had success with this method I think your experience may be due to the flux-quality problem that existed late 1980's into the 1990's....? I remember contacting a major flux mfr/suppler and asking them why they were selling aluminum brazing flux labeled as aluminum welding flux and their techrep's immediate response to me was, "how did you figure this out?"

That flux had permeated the supply chain very thoroughly and was discouraging many welders from aluminum gas welding, at that time.

You see, aluminum brazing flux contains zinc chloride (which has a particular aroma) and at welding temperatures, the zinc re-alloys the aluminum, making it hard, brittle, and lacking the flow needed for welding. From what you describe here, I think you tangled with that mis-labeled flux.

As far as the flux entrapment issue is concerned, I am less convinced that it is a flux or welding problem as it is a method problem. The one time I got a come-back from some aluminum gas welding I had done, it was a flux entrapment issue and it was a problem I had created by my (incorrect) methodology, and pertained to my re-welding a problem area. I had re-fluxed the problem spot without cleaning off the old flux from my first attempt. This entrapped the old semi-inactive flux into the molten aluminum. This, along with my not realizing that the mass of the repair required a larger tip at that point. When I re-repaired it I saw and understood what I had done incorrectly.

For the thousands upon thousands of aluminum gas welded airplane parts made since 1930, upon the thousands of aluminum autos also welded that way, had the flux-entrapment problem been pernicious enough, there would have been a wholesale change in the industry. Since that did not happen, I am suspecting individual methods at variance with accepted practice. :rolleyes:

Along these same lines, I was hearing of flux entrapment in the body-soldering world, during the late 1980's, down in "car capitol USA" - Los Angeles. And the same thing was going on: a disconnect from accepted practice, where new craftsmen were coming on but no longer learning proper methodology. This happens when there is a decline in schools, apprentice programs, and available instructional materials.

I don't think the problem is in the technology itself - just in the individual method. I started with the tig, after going to night school. I was unhappily laying under the Bugatti fender, overhead tig-welding the back side of my previous aluminum weld when our ex-Rolls metalman came over and told me, "why don't you get rid of that f''''ing tig and use the f'''ing torch !! His Irish was always colorful, and prompted me to investigate gas welding aluminum.

hope this diatribe helps,

Ben 05-01-2017 03:27 PM

Hi Rick,

I looked into the flux and it was standard TM flux,using a little bit on the underside put it on there with the welding rod..

Ben



Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick Mullin (Post 136237)
Are you using standard aluminum welding flux for oxy-acet.? I tried that years ago and had problems with cracking on the back side. What about flux entrapment? Perhaps I will experiment tomorrow. I started my career using exclusively oxy-acet. and was very proficient. Most of my panel welding was fusion welding without filler wire. I had one very big job come back with a flux entrapment problem and switched to TIG. Fix a job for free and you learn quickly. Any tips that you want to offer up before I try would be appreciated.


Rick


elavir 06-17-2017 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben (Post 136191)
Hi all ,

having difficulties with a full penetration welding 1mm aluminum sheet I got this idea I have bin walking arround with for several years and finally tried it.

I used a very small amount of flux on the backside of a test piece using normal tig welding.

You can see at the foto's that the back has a good penetration..

The only thing I don't know if the fumes are more toxic then with gaswelding aluminum..

So that is the question,is there anybody with an answer on this..
http://www.allmetalshaping.com/pictu...ictureid=18220

Front of the weld .I hammered it out to see the strenght..

http://www.allmetalshaping.com/pictu...ictureid=18219

Back of the weld you can see FULL penetration here and no cracks after the hammering..
Thanks

Ben

Hi Ben,
just finished welding and I put some flux on the back of the weld seam as you described. The weld was good but I had difficulties seeing the seam because of the orange flare. I tried the ali grade gaswelding shield but this was too bright. Did you encounter this too, and how did you solve this?
Cheers Richard.

Ben 06-18-2017 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elavir (Post 137535)
Hi Ben,
just finished welding and I put some flux on the back of the weld seam as you described. The weld was good but I had difficulties seeing the seam because of the orange flare. I tried the ali grade gaswelding shield but this was too bright. Did you encounter this too, and how did you solve this?
Cheers Richard.

I just used my regular welding helmet...


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