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  #11  
Old 05-19-2010, 01:19 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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Originally Posted by Marty Comstock View Post
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On another note, how much time is actually saved by not using filler rod? The gap has to be damn near perfect, and getting that IMHO takes even more time than its worth. Maybe I like grinding, maybe its because I am good at it. I dont see the point of spending a buck to save a nickel. Too many advantages of using filler, for me. ~ Marty...
Marty, one thing for sure is the abrasives & dust mask companies certainly agree with your style. After 12 or so years in collision work and another 14 or 15 as a heavy man I have certainly burned up my share of abrasives and probably ruined my sinuses too --- I didn’t have allergies as a kid but sure do now. At 62 years old with pneumonia damaged lungs I appreciate clean air now more than ever so my focus is directed on becoming a better welder, NOT a better grinder. Maybe when you reach my age or health state (God forbid) you may think more like me.
> >
Anyway don’t take this as a knock on the structural integrity of your welding, i’m sure it is more than sound enough for body / coach work. I just don’t understand how you feel the cost of abrasives, wear & tear on air tools, cost of running a compressor and grinding time plus dust cleanup time is better than spending a few extra minutes on fit up ? I get the feeling (and I may be very wrong here) you are very hesitant about learning new technique which at your age is kind of a shame. When I was around 45 I went to Scott’s class and got a lot of my thinking turned completely around. All I’m trying to say is I think you should be a little more open minded on different technique . ~ John Buchtenkirch


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  #12  
Old 05-19-2010, 03:16 PM
TheRodDoc TheRodDoc is offline
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I weld a lot without filler. I never have any trouble with pits or any undercut. And I don't really take to much time cleaning the metal. Just remove the paint if it has some or rust.

I think you might be just moving to slow. I call it cooking the weld.
This can happen even if you don't have complete penetration.

If you get the puddle to hot and it stays that hot for to long, the underside is bringing in dirty air from back side and mixing it into the weld.
That oxygen is burning up some of the metal. The more that is burned up the more under cut there will be. Also pits can or will form.

The reason for not using the filler for me is to almost eliminate the distortion. Very little hammering or none.
Plus almost no grinding at all. plus the welding time is very short.

In only a couple minutes I can make a 4 foot long weld and the part is almost done. Just a light sanding of the weld on both sides which might take another 3 or 4 minutes and I'm done with the panel,
vs. what some have said taking 1 hour to weld 1 foot. and then still having to straighten the panel up when done welding.
Now that doesn't make sense to me.

I do use filler in places that are hard to reach and steady the torch well enough to move fast. I also use filler if I didn't get a good fit on the joint. And always on thicker metal such as 16 ga.and thicker.
As far as strength of the finished part there doesn't seem to be any difference as far as forming the sheet with a weld in it that had filler or one that did not. You can shrink or stretch right over either.
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  #13  
Old 05-19-2010, 04:28 PM
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Marty Comstock Marty Comstock is offline
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John, feel free to breathe a sigh of relief, I do and will practice this technique untill I am better at it. I do not appreciate that you feel that I am not open to new ideas however. I have tried it, and will continue to do so untill I am satisfied that I am skilled enough at it to rival Richards results. I do not feel however that it is a technique that applies everytime. Maybe 10 to 20 percent of my welding could even use this technique. I shoot for that perfect gap and fusion weld, and as of this point, I always wished I had added filler.

Marty
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:54 PM
TheRodDoc TheRodDoc is offline
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John, why don't you show us how you weld on a 2 foot long weld or so. It would help for everyone to see what you are talking about. If your method looks good others might then try it. I'm open to something different if your method looks good and works well.
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:10 PM
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jhnarial jhnarial is offline
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We discussed this in a different thread and I have been using the technique. Not every time but it seems like I have been using it more and more. I must be going to slow because I still get some under cut. I am getting better with controlling the puddle or I should say better then I was.

Still have a long ways to go I am just barely now comfortable tig welding in general. One thing I can say it is much more enjoyable tig welding then when my only choice was mig welding.

Truthfully I find it kinda fun. It something I always wanted to learn. I appreciate the advice.
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  #16  
Old 05-19-2010, 08:18 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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Marty, somehow when I read this I feel like you’re saying the opposite of your post #8 . Anyway not to belabor that point, I also can’t weld as good as Richard (rod doc) does but I can tell you without a doubt since Fay inspired me to nearly eliminate using filler rod my distortion is minimal as is planishing time and grinding time . In my case I’m not 100% where I would like to be but it has made a big difference . The only downside I’m seeing to the whole technique is you have to put in some serious practice time, it’s not as easy as learning how to mig weld for example.
> >
As far as fit up problems we have already discussed how to deflect the panels to get a perfect fit up but that idea also didn’t sit well with you even though it came from California Metal Shaping via Scott Knight’s class. If you were planishing out a panel and you hit a low spot I doubt you would think twice about planishing that spot a bit longer to raise it. So what’s so foreign about the idea of welding a panel together with a slight low spot (yes a mistake to get perfect edge fit) and then hammering up that low spot after you have welded your panels together ? I’m not as good as Richard so I have to planish my seams anyway, all it means to me is I have to hit that low spot a second time or hammer there a little bit longer.
> >
If you’re filling a hole and cut your patch a bit shy on one side you can hammer just inside of the edge of the patch with a directional die to grow that edge back for the perfect butt fit up. Mastering the fusion welding is only the harder half of it, the mastering of reasonably fast fit up and speedy correcting of slight fit up mistakes is the other half of the technique, at least that’s the way I feel about it . On butt welded skins I probably use the technique 75% of the time if not more. ~ John Buchtenkirch
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Old 05-19-2010, 08:29 PM
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Marty Comstock Marty Comstock is offline
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LOL, just becaise Scott and Fay does it, doesnt mean I have to agree.

I think you shouldnt sacrifice arrangment for gap, and you are welcome to disagree, no matter who does it and have sucess at it. Matter of fact, anybody can disagree and still all get good results. Isnt that what matters? I am just relaying my attempts at fusion welding and not so satisfactorially results. Maybe I should go back to welding school...

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Old 05-19-2010, 08:49 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRodDoc View Post
John, why don't you show us how you weld on a 2 foot long weld or so. It would help for everyone to see what you are talking about. If your method looks good others might then try it. I'm open to something different if your method looks good and works well.
Richard, I’m a little confused by your request. I’m advocating fusion butt welds just like you and have admitted several times in the past I’m not as good at it as you are. I get away with a lesser weld by planishing out the shrinkage and flattening the weld in my CP hammer. I’m pretty sure I have posted photos of that in the past --- is that what you are asking for ? ~ John Buchtenkirch
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  #19  
Old 05-19-2010, 10:29 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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LOL, just becaise Scott and Fay does it, doesnt mean I have to agree.
I agree, it’s a free country, you can do as you please or think. However, in my own case if someone with years more experience than myself tells me something it certainly carries a lot of weight with me and I ask more questions if I don’t understand their point.

I think you shouldnt sacrifice arrangment for gap, and you are welcome to disagree, no matter who does it and have sucess at it. Matter of fact, anybody can disagree and still all get good results. Isnt that what matters? Again you are certainly allowed your own opinion but I only ask you to read my scenario and possibly you may see the point I have been trying to make all along. Lets just say you absolutely master this fusion butt welding thing (and I think you will) and you’re thrilled by the time and abrasives you find you’re saving. So you’re going to weld 2 sheets together one day but you find for whatever reason you have a 1/16” gap in the middle of the sheets that runs for 3 or 4’’. Lets just say you could fill that area with rod but now you’re back to grinding and likely more warping and maybe you’re looking at 7 to 15 minutes of extra work or more. Or you could deflect the sheets in and out as you're tacking, do your butt weld as originally planed and add that missing 1/16” in a few minutes of extra planishing in that area. I always have faster more predictable results raising a low spot than I do dealing with excessive warping so the choice is clear cut for me. And once you add that 1/16" back your arrangment will once again be correct.>>
> >
I am just relaying my attempts at fusion welding and not so satisfactorially results. Maybe I should go back to welding school... ~ Marty
Marty, I have never seen your welds so i would have no right to imply that you can’t weld. I’m sure in some (and possibly all) areas you are a better welder than myself and rightfully so, you have a young man’s eyes . ~ John Buchtenkirch
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Old 05-20-2010, 01:36 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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I fusion weld as I have said many times. I use gas mostly but I use tig at times. I don't understand why anyone has problems with getting the panels to fit well enough to fusion weld. I scribe one panel off the other and trim to the line - that's it. I seldom do more than this unless I miss the line and need to file a little.

Why are you worried about a few pits in the joint? I never use filler rod unless I blow a hole. As John and Richard have said, welding without filler rod means an even haz and little distortion this is far more important than worrying about a few pits in the joint. UNLESS the panel is going to be chrome plated then having a perfect surface becomes more important than the time you have in it.

This is especially relevant to those people who are working with hand tools and don't have planishing machines - less distortion means more chance of getting a good ripple free finish in a reasonable time. Undercuts will fill with a little paint prep so whats the worry? its not like coating the whole panel with 1/4 inch thick bondo. (or inch and a half like I have found in cars before)

The pits are easily fixed - ripples caused by uneven heating of the panel are not.

David
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