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  #11  
Old 02-23-2016, 12:14 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Default A short Flow Forming video -

I forgot to post this quick demo of Flow Forming:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9K6c3_DMXjQ
a few years' old now, but maybe helpful?

(there is also part 2, but I am not that keen on it, though it was put up, anyway. )

I choose my rivet guns from the name brand aviation models:
Cleco
Ingersoll Rand (IR)
Chicago Pneumatic (CP) (Good copies mf'd by Taylor)
Sioux
USATCO
APT
Desoutter
Dallet

Trigger control must be sensitive.
Air control definitely advised.
Air swivel can be helpful - and a leader/whip hose.
Very slow hits desirable.
Single hits, also.

I've used pneumatic stone carvers to work thin copper.

(ps, I have been building, rebuilding and modifying rivet guns since 1987, and using them long before that .)
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  #12  
Old 02-23-2016, 07:50 AM
sblack sblack is offline
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Great stuff! Love the nacelle lip and tripod gizmo to hold it.

Encore, encore!
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  #13  
Old 02-23-2016, 09:44 AM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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This is almost like deja vu.... Since most of this in the quotes was a reply to my post in the Events thread a few days ago and I had no interest in going this far off-topic over there, I'll reply here.

[QUOTE= I've used pneumatic stone carvers to work thin copper.[/QUOTE]

Tell me more.

That sounds like a very small stone carving hammer- especially a short stroke machine (B or Cuturi) for carving soft stone.

Length of stroke partnered with piston size (5/16", 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1 1/4" or larger) helps determine how much energy can be transferred with each strike. Short stroke machines buzz and don't seem do much in comparison to any full stroke machine, especially bigger machines that growl and even bigger machines that chug and roar as they try to bite off meat & fingers...

A short stroke machine will carve soft stone much faster than a full stroke machine used on the same stone, with a better surface finish and less chance of bruising soft stone like marble or limestone. Hard stone like granite requires full stroke and larger pistons to actually produce results, although a short stroke machine is sometimes used to resolve fine edges or delicate details.

In terms of metal, a short stroke machine will planish while a full stroke machine will much more aggressively move metal.

[QUOTE= (ps, I have been building, rebuilding and modifying rivet guns since 1987, and using them long before that .)[/QUOTE]

For what it's worth, my family has done this work continuously, full time, in the USA granite industry since 1891. I take their lessons and wisdom very seriously, because I am the culmination of their accomplishments and sacrifices. I started carving as a child in 1973, first carved professionally in 1990 and have been full-time in granite using hand machines since 2000. No die grinders, sand blasting, cnc, etc- everything I carve in granite is done by hand including finishing with a pneumatic hammer and chisel.

[QUOTE= I choose my rivet guns from the name brand aviation models:
Cleco
Ingersoll Rand (IR)
Chicago Pneumatic (CP) (Good copies mf'd by Taylor)
Sioux
USATCO
APT
Desoutter
Dallet

Trigger control must be sensitive.
Air control definitely advised.
Air swivel can be helpful - and a leader/whip hose.
Very slow hits desirable.
Single hits, also.[/QUOTE]

My IR (old), CP(old) and numerous Dallet (old and new) pneumatic hand carving machines, even if they have a claim to pedigree, don't perform as well as Trow & Holden or real Bicknell machines. I wish my grandfather's Dallets performed as well, because I like the idea of using them to continue doing the family's same work. I like T&H and Bicknell better.

Every line I use has an air valve, with hose suspended from a boom. I don't use a swivel because it allows better control of my machines & hose and helps avoid accidental damage. Pretty simple to put an air valve inline to fine/further tune a trigger machine to slow or one hit.

Finger triggers are much safer than backstrap actuators. I have a couple of contemporary CP CP9 SDS Handrils I like a lot, one for drilling and one for hammer only use. Heavy use. My Master Sculptor had a Cleco we used there for the same purpose, at least that's what we called it as a generic term. Never tried my CP9 on metal, but pretty certain it'll make serious progress if I do... I have a german F&K trigger pneumatic hammer I got in a studio buy-out, but never use it. Triggers in general are a liability that I would rather avoid.

The difference is that one extra, unintended or misplaced hit can destroy an entire 4-, 5- or 6-$$figure stone project. Imagine an entire vehicle/airplane gets thrown away because of one single hammer bump. No bumping out, annealing, r welding in a patch, doing a new panel... Hence my reference to not choosing my hammers lightly and my preference for monolithic work.

The stone hammers I've used on metal so far (full stroke 3/4" and 1" for forming, short stroke for planishing) move it well & easier than by hand and are very tractable, at least for me. The process and activity of form and surface realization interests me greatly- wood, ice, stone, metal, etc. Anything that will only move thin copper certainly won't carve granite like I do and shouldn't be offered as representative of these tools in general.

I don't claim to be an expert on rivet guns. That's why I asked for someone to bring 1-2 to the RR so I could handle them. I'm not interested in disparaging the tools, methods or other things you use or market. The only thing I sell is what comes off the end of my hand machine. Not sure why another alternative method or perspective even concerns you, since this application of either tool is a creative adaptation- not the original intended use.

In all politeness, Kent, please have a nice day.
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  #14  
Old 02-23-2016, 10:20 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffrod View Post
That sounds like a very small stone carving hammer- especially a short stroke machine (B or Cuturi) for carving soft stone.

- I've used the Trow B for soft copper. Smooth work.
I've never touched stone carving at all, only metal.
Just metal. -


Length of stroke partnered with piston size (5/16", 1/2", 3/4", 1", 1 1/4" or larger) helps determine how much energy can be transferred with each strike. Short stroke machines buzz and don't seem do much in comparison to any full stroke machine, especially bigger machines that growl and even bigger machines that chug and roar as they try to bite off meat & fingers...

A short stroke machine will carve soft stone much faster than a full stroke machine used on the same stone, with a better surface finish and less chance of bruising soft stone like marble or limestone. Hard stone like granite requires full stroke and larger pistons to actually produce results, although a short stroke machine is sometimes used to resolve fine edges or delicate details.

In terms of metal, a short stroke machine will planish while a full stroke machine will much more aggressively move metal.

- I've also used an engraving tool for adding artwork to formed copper. I made my own tool inserts for that use. -

For what it's worth, my family has done this work continuously, full time, in the USA granite industry since 1891. I take their lessons and wisdom very seriously, because I am the culmination of their accomplishments and sacrifices. I started carving as a child in 1973, first carved professionally in 1990 and have been full-time in granite using hand machines since 2000. No die grinders, sand blasting, cnc, etc- everything I carve in granite is done by hand including finishing with a pneumatic hammer and chisel.

- Sounds like Trow and Holden, from what I've learned on the phone with them. But, they also got into the metal working business for a while, as a sideline, contracting. -

My IR (old), CP(old) and numerous Dallet (old and new) pneumatic hand carving machines, even if they have a claim to pedigree, don't perform as well as Trow & Holden or real Bicknell machines. I wish my grandfather's Dallets performed as well, because I like the idea of using them to continue doing the family's same work. I like T&H and Bicknell better.

- Dallet is a very old design. -

Every line I use has an air valve, with hose suspended from a boom. I don't use a swivel because it allows better control of my machines & hose and helps avoid accidental damage. Pretty simple to put an air valve inline to fine/further tune a trigger machine to slow or one hit.

- If the gun is built well, it can be coaxed to make one hit. Some are not made that well. -

Finger triggers are much safer than backstrap actuators. I have a couple of contemporary CP CP9 SDS Handrils I like a lot, one for drilling and one for hammer only use. Heavy use. My Master Sculptor had a Cleco we used there for the same purpose, at least that's what we called it as a generic term. Never tried my CP9 on metal, but pretty certain it'll make serious progress if I do... I have a german F&K trigger pneumatic hammer I got in a studio buy-out, but never use it. Triggers in general are a liability that I would rather avoid.

- For my work I like the gooseneck and the backstrap trigger, for some forming. -


I don't claim to be an expert on rivet guns. That's why I asked for someone to bring 1-2 to the RR so I could handle them. I'm not interested in disparaging the tools, methods or other things you use or market. The only thing I sell is what comes off the end of my hand machine. Not sure why another alternative method or perspective even concerns you, since this application of either tool is a creative adaptation- not the original intended use.

- I don't do stone, only metal. (so far) -

In all politeness, Kent, please have a nice day.
- thank you,
and you too.
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  #15  
Old 02-23-2016, 06:52 PM
sblack sblack is offline
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Kent what is the form block material for the nacelle lip? And my bad it isn't a tripod it is a quadrapod, if that's a word?
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  #16  
Old 02-23-2016, 10:18 PM
Bart Bart is offline
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I had a go at flow forming last week.
Its a bit rough but first time.
Its a number plate recess, I have an air chisel which goes bap bap bap fairly quickly, not ideal but its what i got at the moment.
I used the pullmax but this is not ideal, i will give the air hammer a go next time i try this.
Wish i saw this thread before






Number plate recess




The number plate recess sneeds to go in the middle of this panel, in the flat area
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Last edited by Bart; 02-23-2016 at 10:21 PM.
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  #17  
Old 02-24-2016, 06:18 AM
Oldnek Oldnek is offline
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OK, Is there another name for the Pneumatic Rivet Gun, I have searched to purchase one, and the only Rivet guns that come up are the ones only to install the conventional rivet, not the air chisel style.
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  #18  
Old 02-24-2016, 06:39 AM
steve.murphy steve.murphy is offline
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Hi John
Here is one local source:
https://www.skyshop.com.au/ats/RIVET%20GUNS.pdf

They come up on US ebay regularly postage might not be too bad if you can get USPS flat rate box shipping.
Also worth look at the Yard store in Kansas for new and used
http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/2,402.html

Cheers
Steve
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  #19  
Old 02-24-2016, 11:06 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldnek View Post
OK, Is there another name for the Pneumatic Rivet Gun, I have searched to purchase one, and the only Rivet guns that come up are the ones only to install the conventional rivet, not the air chisel style.
John,
A "rivet gun" is different from an "air chisel."

Rivet guns are controllable, have individual hits, and can have air adjustments on them. They cost more because of these nice well-designed features and their high quality machining.
aka: aircraft rivet gun, aviation rivet gun, or by the manufacturer - which I have listed, at length, previously in this thread.

Air chisels are not very controllable, do not have any air adjustments, and buzz, growl, or burp without individual hits. They are cheap. And they are more widely available.

Either one can be used, but one will give more user satisfaction and accuracy of hits.
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"All it takes is a little practical experience to blow the he!! out of a perfectly good theory." --- Lloyd Rosenquist, charter member AWS, 1919.

Last edited by crystallographic; 02-24-2016 at 11:08 AM.
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  #20  
Old 02-24-2016, 05:19 PM
Oldnek Oldnek is offline
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Hi Kent,
I now know that Rivet guns are different to Air Chisel, that's why I put the Not Air Chisel Style in my last post.
In Australia when you do a search the only thing that keeps coming up, is the conventional Rivet gun but air operated. (Epay, Gumtree, Machinery House and so on)

I was hoping to source a good used one and get some tooling with it also. It's all about the price and the Aussie Dollar is pretty poor ATM
Steve has put up a couple links, one from an Australian Aviation supplier which I'm going to give them a call today.

Thanks for the heads up, and find it very interesting to shape this way, and make use of the tool in tight confined spaces, where you can't swing a hammer on body panels.

Cheers John
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