All MetalShaping

Go Back   All MetalShaping > General Metal Shaping Discussion > Basic questions and answers
  Today's Posts Posts for Last 7 Days Posts for Last 14 Days  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #11  
Old 07-30-2016, 10:45 AM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
MetalShaper of the Month October '14 , April '16, July 2020, Jan 2023
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Western Sierra Nevadas, Badger Hill, CA
Posts: 4,388
Default mastery, oiling

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluchip View Post
(I believe you meant IS that level vs. "as that level")

Whatever anyone may retain from this thread, please commit that statement to memory.
That is not your belief Kent. That is fact and life in general.

Brilliant!
Bravo Zulu
Thanks,
edit:
I believe mastery of an art to be at that level of practice which has fewer limits, and many more possibilities.

Re: oiling the panel
Oiling the panel is a technique, especially with using steel in the power hammers, as it permits the panels to slide quickly. Two drawback to this on aluminum are:

1) oil retains any airborne grit onto the surface - and also hairs from eyebrows, eyelashes, mustaches etc (wearing hairnets is only a partial fix) often fall to the surface and can be compressed into it. On aircraft panels these compression marks are flaws, and in some cases where the hair sticks to the wheel and makes several repeated passes in the same area it makes a high spot -
2) aluminum is made nearly unweldable by compressing oil into its surface, by either wheel or hammer - ask those who learn this the hard way ..... .
When using a planishing hammer or a power hammer on aluminum, the aluminum frets onto the dies (search: fretting corrosion), creates friction and makes it difficult to move the panel smoothly. Lubricant is needed, but not one that will impregnate the surface and add problems during welding - or add stress corrosion later on.
__________________
Kent

http://www.tinmantech.com

"All it takes is a little practical experience to blow the he!! out of a perfectly good theory." --- Lloyd Rosenquist, charter member AWS, 1919.

Last edited by crystallographic; 07-30-2016 at 11:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-30-2016, 02:25 PM
ekdave1962's Avatar
ekdave1962 ekdave1962 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Geelong Australia
Posts: 592
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by crystallographic View Post
Thanks,
edit:



2) aluminum is made nearly unweldable by compressing oil into its surface, by either wheel or hammer - ask those who learn this the hard way ..... .
When using a planishing hammer or a power hammer on aluminum, the aluminum frets onto the dies (search: fretting corrosion), creates friction and makes it difficult to move the panel smoothly. Lubricant is needed, but not one that will impregnate the surface and add problems during welding - or add stress corrosion later on.
Kent what do you use as a lubricant for alloy ? if not oil based

Thanks David
__________________
David
Geelong victoria
Australia
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-30-2016, 04:46 PM
toreadorxlt toreadorxlt is offline
MetalShaper of the Month August '15 Jan '17 Dec'17 Aug'19
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: NH
Posts: 590
Default

i was taught by wray and he doesn't wheel an one direction by any means.. all over the map, and his panels look like glass.
__________________
Steve
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-30-2016, 05:31 PM
Kerry Pinkerton's Avatar
Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Near Huntsville, Alabama. Just south of the Tennessee line off I65
Posts: 8,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by toreadorxlt View Post
i was taught by wray and he doesn't wheel an one direction by any means.. all over the map, and his panels look like glass.
And he even uses (gasp) contact flat anvils. Oh the horror!

Just in case someone is so obtuse they don't understand the sarcasm, I'm being sarcastic. I learned from Wray Schelin too and use contact flat anvils. I'm not a true radius fan. That said, they can work and work well for folks that master them, I'm just not one of those who has.

Folks, there are so many ways to shape metal it's hard to count. Anyone who says their way is the ONLY way is full of crap. Folks learn a way. With persistence and dedication, they may learn several ways. None of they are wrong.

I choose to use what works best for ME. I've been able to teach that to a bunch of folks over the years but HOPEFULLY, the main thing I've taught them is that there are other ways and they should choose the approach that works for them.

A few years ago, a friend, who shall remain nameless, was trying to make a thing and struggling with it. He asked several very knowledgeable shapers for guidance and received some good input. However, he was still struggling with the part. Eventually he asked me and I explained how I would approach it and then took the panel showed him how to do what I was talking about. The FLASH when the lightbulb went off was blinding and he finished the panel in short order.

I'm not telling this story in order to make people think I'm a master shaper. I'm not and I'm not that good. And the advise that my friend was given was all correct and would have worked. But it didn't work for HIM.

We have to choose an approach that works for US and what skills and tools we have available.
__________________
Kerry Pinkerton
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-31-2016, 05:57 AM
Maxakarudy Maxakarudy is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Origin of the wheel, UK
Posts: 630
Default

From what I have gathered over the years from listening and looking at what the pro's do and my own experience, is wheeling shape in one or more than direction, depends on the level of crown you are trying to achieve.
I agree that wheeling a low crown door or roof skin would be easier to achieve in 1 direction, cross wheeling causes an uneven/rippled surface as the change in direction creates shape in a conflicting direction.
A high crown panel is more forgiving to cross wheeling and is sometimes necessary due to the shape required.
A random wheeling method by nature would be hard to get your head around, it would make everything really difficult, why do it the hard way.
__________________
Cheers
Martin

No matter how clever you think you are, stupidity is always one step ahead!!!!

Last edited by Maxakarudy; 07-31-2016 at 06:01 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 07-31-2016, 07:22 AM
RockHillWill RockHillWill is offline
MetalShaper of the Month Jan 2019
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,089
Default

Believe Kerry on that one. I may not be THE guy he is talking about, but I was A guy at Dans, that could not figure out a reverse curve on the speedster cowl panel. I was all morning trying to get one side done, and after Kerry's input, the other side got done in about an hour and a half. By the way, "Pinky", I am not obtuse.
__________________
Will
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 07-31-2016, 08:06 AM
Kerry Pinkerton's Avatar
Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Near Huntsville, Alabama. Just south of the Tennessee line off I65
Posts: 8,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxakarudy View Post
...A random wheeling method by nature would be hard to get your head around, it would make everything really difficult, why do it the hard way.
I don't think I agree. You simply add stretch or shrink where needed. One of the beauties of using a flexible shape pattern is that the FSP TELLS you where the stretch is needed by being loose in that area, similarity tightness indicates shrink is needed. Working from or to a hard buck is a bit more difficult to read...for me at least.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
...We have to choose an approach that works for US and what skills and tools we have available.
And how our brain works

I don't like true radius anvils and don't especially care for soft frames. That doesn't mean I can't shape a nice looking panel. I was taught by Wray who uses STIFF frames, contact flats, works from FSPs, and shapes out of arrangement. That approach speaks to me. But it's not the only way.

Yes Will, I was talking about your reverse at Dan's. I agree you're not obtuse...more oval But then I'm catching up rapidly.
__________________
Kerry Pinkerton
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:59 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.