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  #11  
Old 11-17-2018, 05:34 PM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Buchtenkirch View Post
No one has seemed to ask you..... do you understand the shape & form idea and how it relates to working a panel ??? I had to have someone explain it to me (thank you Mr. Scott Knight) so don't feel bad if you're not 100% sure how it works, speak up . ~ John Buchtenkirch
I made a paper pattern previously, made my shrinks with scissors and tape. I'm using it to show me where my doming needs to be. It's helpful but the fine tuning so far is just putting it on the buck, marking where it touches and stretching that with the mallet.
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  #12  
Old 11-17-2018, 05:37 PM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Originally Posted by Jaroslav View Post
There is no punch anywhere. Only EW and jaws. The first 3 pictures are bad steps. The result is the last picture. After I made a paper roll. Paper is very important. You underestimate it.
When shaping, the sheet must be soft. If you smash it, the metal will harden and you will not do anything with it at the end of the road. It can still be soft. Throw the mallet to dog.
Why do you say get rid of the mallet? I tried shaping this first with only a shrinker and the English wheel but I didn't get near the doming I needed for proper fit.

Also, I'm working with 18 gauge steel - I know aluminum will work harden and need annealing but I'm not aware of this issue with mild steel.

Here I got it to sit finally without any clamps holding it.

IMG_20181117_161833277.jpg
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Last edited by Steve Hamilton; 11-18-2018 at 08:51 AM.
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  #13  
Old 11-17-2018, 05:49 PM
Mike Motage Mike Motage is offline
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Looking good! Do have any way to blend/ planish the walnuts? A post dolly or cheap air powered planishing hammer? Running the lumpy/ walnuts through an English wheel can be kind hap-hazard. Watch those fingers.
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  #14  
Old 11-17-2018, 05:50 PM
Rick Mullin Rick Mullin is offline
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You are correct John. Sorry for making the assumption.

Shape is the stretching (thinning) or shrinking (thickening) of the sheet metal. By stretching, you are increasing the surface area and by shrinking, you are decreasing the surface area. Most panels have both types of shape put into them. Form is the bending of the panel without changing the surface area.

When making a panel, concern yourself with the shape not the form. Make a paper pattern or flexible shape pattern and use that as your guide for how much shape and where. The pattern has no regard for form. If you match the shape in the pattern, bending the panel (forming) will yield the desired result of a finished panel. A common problem for many people when making a panel is that they think that the panel should progressively look like the finished product as they are wheeling or hammering. Not so. As long as the shape is correct, the panel's form can be manipulated at the end. The only exception is in making a reverse curve where the shape is generally creating the bulk of the form at the same time.

By manipulating the form, you can use lower crown anvils or planishing dies to transition and smooth the panel. Adding form is also important in shrinking. By arching a panel, it removes the load on the shrink allowing more material to be gathered.

I hope that was a helpful explanation.
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  #15  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:01 PM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Mullin View Post
You are correct John. Sorry for making the assumption.

Shape is the stretching (thinning) or shrinking (thickening) of the sheet metal. By stretching, you are increasing the surface area and by shrinking, you are decreasing the surface area. Most panels have both types of shape put into them. Form is the bending of the panel without changing the surface area.

When making a panel, concern yourself with the shape not the form. Make a paper pattern or flexible shape pattern and use that as your guide for how much shape and where. The pattern has no regard for form. If you match the shape in the pattern, bending the panel (forming) will yield the desired result of a finished panel. A common problem for many people when making a panel is that they think that the panel should progressively look like the finished product as they are wheeling or hammering. Not so. As long as the shape is correct, the panel's form can be manipulated at the end. The only exception is in making a reverse curve where the shape is generally creating the bulk of the form at the same time.

By manipulating the form, you can use lower crown anvils or planishing dies to transition and smooth the panel. Adding form is also important in shrinking. By arching a panel, it removes the load on the shrink allowing more material to be gathered.

I hope that was a helpful explanation.
That is good food for thought, thank you.

I've noticed that basically everytime I finish hammering out the middle for stretch, the overall form has folded closer, so I lay it on the ground and push the edges outward.

Easily the biggest challenge of this piece for me is the left and right side (when looking straight at the panel) not wanting to curve downward onto the buck. I have continued to hammer and stretch the center upward so these sides have clearance and can come downward when resting on the buck. Still a challenge though. I've stretched the middle so much that when looking inside it's barely touching the stations, and it's mainly the backbone causing that teeter left and right. I've hammered out the middle to get out of the way but it's hard to achieve the stretch I need along that edge. Getting there little by little.
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  #16  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:06 PM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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It's better. All my photos were examples of a bad start. Poor neckline. Try to make a smaller sample. He will show you the possibilities of shaping. Try, test, test. Think and think. Less power, more understanding of the issues. I have strong machines, they are very helpful. Without the right procedure, I can not use it. The material prevents you and you have to understand it. Use paper for shaping, it's the same.
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  #17  
Old 11-17-2018, 06:06 PM
RB86 RB86 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Motage View Post
Looking good! Do have any way to blend/ planish the walnuts? A post dolly or cheap air powered planishing hammer? Running the lumpy/ walnuts through an English wheel can be kind hap-hazard. Watch those fingers.
Thanks I don't yet, that's on the list. So far I've just wheeled them out but yeah, it'd be nice to be able to do a little plannishing before driving on the Rocky road!
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  #18  
Old 11-17-2018, 07:09 PM
Rick Mullin Rick Mullin is offline
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I suggest tuck shrinking the ends. Do not try to get all of the shape with stretching. As a quick impression from the picture, I would say that a panel with that much shape should be in the area of 50 / 50 (shrink / stretch).
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  #19  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:37 AM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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As Rick says. Your case is shrinking. The snapshot is a shrink according to the drawn line and the bend of the arc that happens automatically. The other two images are after using EW. So you already know the direction ? Bend the whole shape, do not worry. If you made a small pieces is a terrible job. The whole shape shows you the way, but it must remain soft. A larger hammer is a prehistoric method like "Flinstone". All is from stone. Bam bam.

DSC09718.jpg

DSC09720.jpg

DSC09719.jpg
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Last edited by Steve Hamilton; 11-18-2018 at 08:57 AM.
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  #20  
Old 11-18-2018, 05:43 AM
Peter Tommasini Peter Tommasini is offline
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Rob ...this might help you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rB2BDEXfd7Q&t=3s

Peter

PS the blocking hammer that you are using it's not heavy enough to put some dissent tuks or to create enough stretch on the panel .. and to tell you the truth I think that hammer you are using is only good for braking real walnuts ...also when looking at your first pics (where the piece you are making is sitting on the buck) I can see that there is not enough shrinking on the hidden side of the picture,..... if you look closely you can tell by the two sides ,(the two going down on the buck)are still going straight ahead
meaning....... re block the center and shrink the s*it on the hidden side ...as shown on the video do not shrink the edge where the panels are going to be welded
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Metalshaping tools and dvds
www.handbuilt.net.au

Metalshaping clip on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEAh91hodPg

Making Monaro Quarter panel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIpOhz0uGRM

Last edited by Peter Tommasini; 11-18-2018 at 06:03 AM.
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