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  #31  
Old 12-01-2009, 09:50 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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I agree with what John has said about cutting a corner radius but I always cut my hole to fit the patch and not the patch to fit the hole, it makes life easier. When cutting the corner the only thing I would add is take two bites at it, cut most of the excess away then trim to the line, you will distort the metal less because the thin strip that is left to trim off will bend out of the way so you will not end up damaging the panel.

David
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  #32  
Old 12-01-2009, 11:00 AM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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The Contour method, like DG's doesn't use clamps and you can also manipulate the gap a little by moving the two panels relative to each other (typically held in your free hand)
Once again you're better off taking a little time to get good fit though!

Your method sure sounds interesting though John - will have to try.


Barry, just a few points, the high speed tig tacking isn’t my method, Fay Butler told me how to do it on the phone one day. When I took Scott Knight’s course he purposely went off the scribe line a 1/8” while trimming just to show us how to manipulate crowned panels to make the edges line up. So he basically had us weld a panel together with a big low spot in it. Then he ran that panel thru his power hammer and flattened out that weld and leveled out the low spot so quickly the class was standing their with their jaws hanging. Someone mentioned to me that I shouldn’t bring up this point because most members don’t have power hammers. A valid point but like Scott said “I never miss my scribe line by 1/8”, I just want to show you guys that you can correct a weld seem if it’s a little off by hammering it, whether it’s with a power hammer, planishing hammer or hammer & dolly”. Obviously if you don’t have the professional machinery it’s to your advantage to make your panel seams as accurate as possible. When I tack, I start from one side of the panel and work across it, I leave one end un-welded so I can manipulate the ends to close my weld gaps. I also press down with the edge of the gas cup to level the 2 edges at times. I always touch the panels with the edge of the gas cup (that sets my tungsten distance) and rotate the torch on that edge when I make my weld. Like I said, it’s really more of a technique than skilled welding, you just become the tack weld robot. I understand how & why the Contour method works, I just don’t see where I would need it with the way I do it. ~ John Buchtenkirch
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  #33  
Old 12-01-2009, 04:48 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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John looks like you do almost exactly what Contour do and very similar to what I do.

John You showed the sections tack welded together but you never showed the part fully welded I would be interested in see the final weld before it has been ground filed or sanded so you can show us how this is the best way of joining panels, I am eager to learn. perhaps a few photos of finished panels too it is one thing to have it described and another to see exactly how it is done.
Lots of photos please.

David
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Last edited by David Gardiner; 12-01-2009 at 05:23 PM. Reason: add question
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  #34  
Old 12-01-2009, 06:41 PM
Michael Michael is offline
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Tim understand I learned tig doing buildups on dies to remachine ,grind back to usable condition. When doing buildups the rod is feed in continuosly this gives you a fairly level surface with no voids. Yes you have to grind off the proud but the surface ends up near perfect. Try this and see if it works for you.
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  #35  
Old 12-03-2009, 12:32 AM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gardiner View Post
John looks like you do almost exactly what Contour do and very similar to what I do.

John You showed the sections tack welded together but you never showed the part fully welded I would be interested in see the final weld before it has been ground filed or sanded so you can show us how this is the best way of joining panels, I am eager to learn. perhaps a few photos of finished panels too it is one thing to have it described and another to see exactly how it is done.
Lots of photos please.

David
David, I will certainly accommodate your requests but it may be down the road a bit depending if the job I’m hoping to start sometime after Christmas actually does materialize. Money is tight on Long Island right now so we shall see. If you are serious about learning or at least want to give it a try and have access to a tig welder why don’t you try Fay’s tacking method. I re-read my description in post #15 and think it’s pretty thorough, being that you have previous tig experience I would bet you will be getting excellent tacks in short order. In my photos in #18 there is an American dime on the seam for size prospective, it measures .705 in diameter and is .055 thick, that is thousandths of an inch. I kind of hope you do give it a try because I would like to hear what you honestly think about the method. I would also like to maintain my creditability with you & the group because I believe you will see that you can tig tack as quickly as I say.


The tacking is the easy part, running a consistent tig weld with a very small HAZ is something I still work on. I do okay, but after seeing Fay’s welds I know have room for improvement. My vision isn’t the greatest anymore so at times I have trouble following the seam. I really wish I had learned tig welding when I was younger and didn’t wear glasses.


At times I have clamped or screwed patches over holes and scribed them from inside the body and then trimmed the patch to fit the hole, the advantage being that you can trim the patch where you have excellent lighting, something you may appreciate a little more as you get older. However you have guessed correctly, with that rocker panel I will clamp the patch over the missing part, then scribe and final trim the body --- I have no choice because I have no backside access. That also means I will probably mig this patch in rather than tig it, I will not be able to hammer the weld seam.


Finally you asked for photos of my work so I have posted a few but now we are off the subject of invisible weld seams. ~ John Buchtenkirch


P.S. I have to admit that at first I didn’t care for the format of this group but it has grown on me. I like how you can have a discussion and 6 weeks later someone new could join the group and add some new ideas to a dormant discussion.>>
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  #36  
Old 12-03-2009, 02:48 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Hi John, first let me say that the photos of your work show that you do great work, I knew you did and I have read most of your posts and it is obvious that you know what you are doing in fact most of what you describe is exactly the way I do things. I do use mig and tig welding I used mig for structural areas and for plug welding I also use it where I cant get to the back of the weld because by going slowly it is possible to get a weld that will not distort the panel too badly and the result is more predictable. The down side of mig welding is the finished weld needs so much time to get anywhere near a metal finish. I would have said it was impossible until I came on here and saw Johnny and others do it. I have a HF AC/DC tig and I showed a method similar to what you describe on my dvd. I show welding the panel without filler rod and when you do this you get a result very similar to the gas welding method I use. In fact you get a slightly narrower HAZ but I cant say that it leaves the panel much less distorted than a panel I have gas welded because as I have said many times its not so much the amount of heat that causes the distortion as the uneven heat band. (HAZ)

Contour Autocraft teach tig welding without filler rod and they do some of the best work I have seen so this is not a criticism but I have reservations about the weld strength. You may know more about this than me but when welding with tig you have to use tig rods with additives gas welding rods which are just mild steel do not work so I feel that the weld may be compromised if no filler rod is used.

Tig or gas welding with a rod requires a lot of skill and practice and to get a weld which is almost flat and where the HAZ is nearly perfectly uniform is really something that only years of practice will allow. The gas welding method that I show can be learned by someone without any welding experienced in about a day, I have taught many people and I have found almost all cn to it with about eight to ten hours practice. Anyone who has welded with gas or tig will pick it up straight away.

Gas welds are soft and easy to dress and if done with no filler rod in the way I describe need no grinding at all so you do not have to get to the back of the weld with a grinder, only a dolly.

Tacking with tig is easier than tacking with gas but once you have mastered the technique it not too hard. Gas welding is less cumbersome to me because I do not have to wear a welding helmet gloves ect.

I was interested to see the section you tacked fully welded because I could not have welded that together without getting quite a lot of distortion and I would have liked to see what results you got.

Thanks for posting your photos I find it frustrating when people say a lot but never post photos, A picture speaks a thousand words.

David
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  #37  
Old 12-03-2009, 07:06 AM
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Marty Comstock Marty Comstock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gardiner;
when welding with tig you have to use tig rods with additives gas welding rods which are just mild steel do not work so I feel that the weld may be compromised if no filler rod is used.
David, I was wondering whay you have said that tig requires the use of a filler rod. I understand your reservations on this, but let me assure you, rod is not needed when tiging a panel together, given a perfect fit.

The additives in the rods used, are mainly deoxidizers, silicone and magneseum with difering amounts of each. The melting point of these are lower than that of steel and they float to the surface, clinging to oxygen as they rise. what you end up with is a weld that is no more stronger or weaker than the parent metal.

I have heard of and even tried welding (gas and tig) with mechanics wire because it is softer, making the weld softer and easier to work, I found no advantage here, just have to make sure everything is super clean. Also, what is called gas rod, or even tig rod isnt available in the small diameters that I like to use, .023 and .030, so I use mig wire straightened for this use. I use primarially ER70S-6 which carries the most deoxidizers.

I have found what is more important is practicing getting that perfect fit and panel arrangment, thus allowing me to have better sucess at getting that even HAZ to limit distortion. I am also going to try Johns tecnique of tacking, but i have been forgetting to do so when I do a panel. Lots on my mind I guess.

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  #38  
Old 12-03-2009, 05:57 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Hello Marty, I show tig welding without filler rod on my DVD I don't normally tig weld panels for the reasons I stated, but I say on the dvd that it is a matter of personal preference. As you say fit is a very important factor and to me the most important thing is putting the joints in the right places. It is possible to get a good finish almost no matter where you put the welded joints but joining in certain areas can cause more work so it follows that if the joints are put in areas that resist distorting you will have less to dress out. sometimes it can also save a lot of work by making smaller sections and joining them so that less shaping is required.
Thank you for the information on the welding rod/wire.

David
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  #39  
Old 12-03-2009, 09:01 PM
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Like Marty, I tend toward .030" wire for TIG welding. I have also used it for gas welding, but I prefer .045" rod for that.

Perfect gaps are great, but not always doable - like the '30 Ford Fordor sheetmetal I welded up a while back. I bought all of the rear sections of the roof (already cut up) for $75 shipped from Michigan. It arrived in 3 boxes and I worked with the cuts that were already made. There ended up being a few sections where I would have been time ahead making new metal instead of welding around the gaps and fitting a few filler strips. It ended up being original Ford sheetmetal though

Tim D.
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  #40  
Old 12-04-2009, 02:07 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoty View Post
Like Marty, I tend toward .030" wire for TIG welding. I have also used it for gas welding, but I prefer .045" rod for that.

Perfect gaps are great, but not always doable - like the '30 Ford Fordor sheetmetal I welded up a while back. I bought all of the rear sections of the roof (already cut up) for $75 shipped from Michigan. It arrived in 3 boxes and I worked with the cuts that were already made. There ended up being a few sections where I would have been time ahead making new metal instead of welding around the gaps and fitting a few filler strips. It ended up being original Ford sheetmetal though

Tim D.
Proves the point Tim!

David
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