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  #11  
Old 08-08-2009, 04:44 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Originally Posted by jhnarial View Post
Good subject Tim.

I needed some inspiration.I have been so busy here lately,I haven't had time to do anything for myself.

I have been practicing tig welding. I have gotten to be a decent bench welder. What I mean by that is, two flat pieces on my welding bench under perfect circumstance.

I have a ton of shaped scrap pieces. I want to start cutting them up and then start welding them up to get the hang of welding them together.

For controlling the warpage -

I still use the same principals,tac every 3/4'' starting from the center of the panel alternating sides, working outward, re-stretch the tacks. I find with the tig welder I don't have to grind proud of the weld before re-stretching the tacks. Then I just fill in the welds between the tacks also alternating sides re stretching the haz as I go. I forgot to mention I use a copper backing to trap the inert gas to insure a clean weld on the inside as well.

To finish the weld I use my 90dg die grinder with a 80 grit pad then my orbital sander with 80 grit then finish it with 120.

I am no pro but I was taught by one Randy Ferguson. After working with him and seeing his work, I will be hard pressed to change my mind on changing my technique.

I don't care how long it takes as long as it is perfect when it is done
Johnny, To me tacking in the centre of the joint and working outwards having to grind and planish every tack, using copper strips to back up the weld so that you dont get too much penetration, using lots of clamps to hold everything in place are all a waste of time for me but if you havel the time good luck to you. I have to make my living from this stuff so I use the methods I do, which have been proven for generations. I am not trying to persuade you to do things my way but I do try to give others who are not set in their ways an alternative and tell them about the original methods that have been used sucessfully for generations the world over.

David
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  #12  
Old 08-08-2009, 06:58 PM
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David, I want to make clear that I appreciate and respect your advice and experience.

I'm not much for using a lot of clamps during welding. I use the butt weld clamps when MIG welding and I use them for certain fitups to check things and stuff like that. The only clamp used on my flat sample was to keep it from falling off the bench - I didn't want the bench acting as a heatsink, so I hung it off the edge. The curved piece didn't use any clamps at all. There is really no more need for clamping with TIG than with gas. The MIG tends to run too fast to be able to line things up and run a bead at the same time.

I don't use the copper strip nearly as often as I probably should, but that comes from my gas welding experience, I think. Too much penetration, however, is not an issue. I prefer my welds to show on the backside too, 100% penetration. With the MIG, I try to make the backside of the weld look almost the same as the front - 100%+ penetration. A bit more work to clean up, maybe, but no need to do any extra welding or filling on the backside.

I don't usually grind and planish my tacks as I go, since the tacks are just fusion welds anyway. Depending on the panel, I may do some stretching of the haz as I go. If possible, I prefer to just do it all afterward. Even when gas welding, if the distortion starts to affect the fitup of the panels being welded, I'll set the torch aside and do some stretching to bring things back in line. Same if I get the panels a bit out of alignment, I'll use a hammer, a dolly, a hacksaw blade, a screwdriver, a pry bar, whatever it takes to get things lined back up.

The point being, I think, a LOT of the techniques for gas welding transfer quite well to TIG work. If I could use my torch in my current workspace, I wouldn't bother with my bodged together TIG rig. As it stands, I can't, so I do.

The TIG welder isn't exactly new technology, and has in fact been around for generations now as well It has, however, only really recently come into the scope of the "average" home shop. Even 7 years ago, when I first started playing with the TIG, it was fairly uncommon to run across people who knew how to TIG, let alone had one in their garage. I have worked with a lot of people who revered and feared TIG welding......to the point that they didn't wanna play with it cuz "I don't know what I'm doing and don't wanna screw up the welder". Well, I haven't broken one yet. Had a hi-freq unit go on the fritz, but I don't think that was my fault.

As for moving the torch around in tight circles when gas welding aluminium, I really don't mind a little bigger haz with ally; it's really, really easy to work it out. Much harder to repair a hole than to stretch some aluminum after the weld is done. Steel is different, so I approach it differently.

As Joe Hartson says, "There's more than one road to town and they are all 'right' ". Goes right along with Johnny's "I don't care how long it takes, as long as it's perfect when it's done" which is paraphrasing Randy Furgeson's "I don't care how ya do it, as long as it's perfect when it's done". Can any method which gives you the results you want really be "wrong"?

I may be a bit off, but I love discussions like this. I think folks learn a lot from a good debate and being presented with several sides and differing views. I want to make clear to everyone that this is not an argument for or against ANY particular way of doing something, but rather a healthy debate about the pros of a number of different techniques. Okay, I don't think we've covered the pros of MIG welding sheetmetal.......if I think of any, I'll let you know.

Tim D.
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  #13  
Old 08-09-2009, 10:37 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Tim I said that tig is fine for welding sections together and you are right the skills are almost the same, I said this to you on my post below and I say it on my DVD. The only problem with tig is that you have to use filler rod to get a weld that you can rely on because the rods have addatives.
Welding with filler rod is much more difficult than the method I show.There is not much advantage in using one over the other appart from this and the even haz you get using my method. You did say on your original post that you were having trouble seeing the weld because of reflection ect, you will not have this problem with gas welding.

I do the same thing and stop tacking and dress the tacks if need be, I also say this on the DVD!

The whole thing about these forums is that people have different ideas and by discussing them everyone can learn. I told you that I used the tig first when I was 16 that was 34 years ago so I am aware of how long its been about.

David
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Last edited by David Gardiner; 08-09-2009 at 10:47 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-15-2009, 08:54 AM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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Tig tacking can be as fast as mig tacking once you learn the technique plus you can use the edge of the gas cup to slightly align the 2 sheets. But to do tig tacking you need a welder with an adjustable high end amperage control, i’m not sure all tig welders have it. The smaller H.A.Z. translates into less warping and you can use silicon bronze rods which don’t have the paint adhesion problems associated with brazing, all of which makes tig my favorite for steel. I used to gas weld a lot but not nearly as much anymore. No one can argue the point that with gas welding, heating and cutting you certainly get a lot of bang for your buck. YIKES, my tig got hit with lightning about 4 years ago – cost $1100 to fix it. Also the metal doesn’t have to be as clean when gas welding and without gas cups the visibility of weld is better. I guess it all boils down to what type of welding you feel comfortable with . ~ John Buchtenkirch
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  #15  
Old 08-25-2009, 10:48 AM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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Last night I posted some advice for Pugsy and the great job he is doing on his Chrysler but this advice would be a perfect follow up post for my recent post here. For those interested in butt welding their panels with tig welding this is what works best & fastest for me so I just copied and pasted it over here. It’s kind of a mix of ideas from Fay Butler, Scott Knight, Rick Mammel and several other crafts people I have been lucky enough to know but it works the best for me . If anyone has different ideas I’m certainly ready to listen.
Pugsy, NICE JOB, you seem to have those panels flowing nicely. I am going to offer you some suggestions to speed up your work that shouldn’t be hard to learn because you already have tig experience from work. First is high speed tig tacking but you need tight fit up of your panels and a tig welder with an adjustable high end setting and a automatic darkening helmet. Set the gas cup right on the panel at a 30 degree angle with the tungsten protruding half way to the panel. Set the high end on your welder between 70 & 90 amps, the exact setting will have to be determined by you after practicing on the same gauge material. Set your tig torch right on the panel using the edge of the gas cup to align the panels (don’t forget the previously mentioned 30 degree angle) and the tip of your tungsten should be 1/32” offset to the panel split. Now bash the foot pedal all the way down and release it instantly while rotating the tungsten tip 1/16” across the panel split and you have your tack with no build up from using a rod and no feeling like you need a third arm and just the smallest HAZ. Giving credit where it’s due Fay Butler told me how to do this on the phone and with an hours practice I was doing the same fairly well but you need tight fit up for it to work without a rod. I scribe & cut my panels carefully but if I do go off a little bit I force them together (even if it creates a low spot) and just correct that with my planishing hammer. The same correcting can be done with a hammer & dolly, it just takes longer. Once you get good at this almost robotic operation you will be able to tack as fast as a mig welder and much faster than a gas torch.>>
Secondly I suggest you buy a tig pen and use it to feed straightened .030 mig wire and just run a continuous bead. You should try to run a fast bead meaning almost a fusion weld but adding a wee bit of that .030 wire when necessary so you end up with almost no bead buildup and a small HAZ. That is what works best & fastest for me , try it on some scrap and see if you can feel comfortable with it, it should save you quite a bit of time over your current method. As a final thought I take a flexible straight edge and scribe across my tacks --- sometimes I have a hard time following my weld line, eyes aren’t so good anymore . ~ John Buchtenkirch
#1aaa11aa.JPG >>
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  #16  
Old 08-25-2009, 02:26 PM
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Chris Bspoke Chris Bspoke is offline
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40 thou metal thickness = 40 amps or there abouts you don't need big amps to tack up just good fit up ie no gaps , easy to say sometimes hard to do i know , but if your fitup is good and your tungsten is ground to a nice sharp point all you have to do is aim smack bang on the joint line and hit the button , if you can set your ramp up to about 1/4 sec and ramp down the same hold button down for 1.5 sec's job done . no need to mess around slowly trying to build up a puddle and add filler . As i see it using bigger amps than you need is just going to lead to you having holes blow through that you have to go back and fill. By all means use big amps to do your final weld but be prepared to move fast , some of my work involves welds that can be 4 to 6 foot long on 18 swg mild steel usually outside corners , i tack about every 4" with 50 amps and then turn the amps up to about 100 and go like f### as they say time is money .
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  #17  
Old 08-25-2009, 05:51 PM
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David

Come on... every time I mention the method I use for welding,you find a way to criticize it.

Your right, I do not do this for a living, it is just a hobby for me but the people that have taught me are doing it for a living. It was Wray Schelin that first mentioned this method, then he taught it to Randy Ferguson who then taught it to me.

You were wrong on the reasoning of the copper backing, it is placed there to trap the inert gas to insure the back side of the weld is as clean as the top side.

Starting from the center and working outward is just a preference.

I'm not sure if you know Wray and Randy but they're no slouches in the metal shaping community.

They didn't owe me anything,they taught me how to do it, because I asked. So now that I know it is a good method it is my turn to pay it forward.

The reason I take such offense to your criticism is that you are not criticizing me your criticizing my mentors,who I know are two of the best metal shapers in the world.

That being said, I know your methods work as well, you have proven that. I just wanted to let you know where I was coming from .

Take care
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  #18  
Old 08-27-2009, 10:00 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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I posted this on another thread but it’s so related concerning this thread that I have taken the liberty to post it here also.>>>
I guess I should have posted photos to back up what I was saying about high speed tacking so here they are. This isn’t something I was reading about or somebody’s theory, it’s what I have been doing for maybe 15 years.>>
#1aw1.JPG

#1aw2.JPG
>>
>>
No hammering or grinding proud tacks, the only thing I do is run a 3” grinder down the seam to get rid of the manufacture’s pickling and my tack discoloring and I’m ready to do my final continues weld. The metal in the photo is .039 thick and the tacks were done at 75 amps with a 1/16” tungsten, bash the foot pedal down and release instantly. It’s not even welding where you watch a puddle, it’s more a robotic technique --- rotate the tungsten across the panel split while the torch’s gas cup is sitting on the panel and at the same time bash and release the foot pedal, that’s all there is to it. Once I got the welder set up and figured out my weld heat on some scrap I did all the tacks in the photo in about a minute. I really think anyone with tig experience could pick this up in under an hour’s practice, it’s just not that hard . ~ John Buchtenkirch >>
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  #19  
Old 08-27-2009, 11:07 PM
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I tried Johns method out today. Works good, as long as your gaps are,,, well as long as your gaps are not gaps at all I was tacking in a small patch panel on my old pontiac.

Here it is all welded up. I had a nice tight fit(except the bottom right corner), with my tig set at 65a (I have a dinosaur of a tig machine, so I don't really know if that is an accurate number) and was using 1/2 - 3/4 of the pedal while welding. I used mig wire as filler, but used very little, and moved very quickly in about 1 1/2 inch stretches at a time. You can see the HAZ is just wider than my pinky finger.

Sorry about the fuzzy pics, I used my phone.

0827091857a.jpg

0827091857.jpg
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  #20  
Old 08-30-2009, 10:54 AM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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I tried Johns method out today. Works good, as long as your gaps are,,, well as long as your gaps are not gaps at all. I was tacking in a small patch panel on my old pontiac. Here it is all welded up. I had a nice tight fit(except the bottom right corner), with my tig set at 65a (I have a dinosaur of a tig machine, so I don't really know if that is an accurate number) and was using 1/2 - 3/4 of the pedal while welding. I used mig wire as filler, but used very little, and moved very quickly in about 1 1/2 inch stretches at a time. You can see the HAZ is just wider than my pinky finger.
> >
Bart, looks good for your very first attempt at a different style of welding. I will give you some thoughts or ideas for the future. First off when I install patches I stay away from square corners as much as possible even though that’s what you end up with if your cutting pieces out with a wiz wheel. Square corners tend to planish out to a knot (high spot) and are slightly problematic to weld. The corners don’t have to be perfect radiuses, just eyeball them to about a silver dollar’s radius and I think you will notice final finishing of the metal becomes easier. Less starts & stops generally means a more consistent bead. In the future tack all your tight fit spots first and then hold a piece of the appropriate sized rod in the gap of the looser fits while tacking. Finally I don’t know if your dinosaur tig has an adjustable high end setting but I wonder if people without one could put some sort of mechanical stop under the actual foot pedal to do the same thing ? ~ John Buchtenkirch>>
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