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  #11  
Old 09-09-2012, 10:13 AM
gerry miller's Avatar
gerry miller gerry miller is offline
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Interesting? I have become a fan of Davids work. I have a few files but actually hardly ever used them when I had a body shop. I watched a few of Davids videos on You tube and never even saw the long files David used anywhere. here in USA. After years of mud slinging and GRINDING I reaize I still don't know how to metal finish and dress. In fact I don't really know what "dressing" means exactly.Does it mean polishing it with sandpaper of finer and finer grit???? I used a few of my files lately and surprisingly they are still sharp after 20 to 30 years of sitting (unused) in my tool boxes.
Thanks guys for sharing your opinions on this and I will keep practicing.
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  #12  
Old 09-09-2012, 11:17 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Marty I agree that it would be hard to justify spending the time on a not so new modern car and anyway panels are cheap enough to by for most 'moderns' so if it takes time better to replace or fill if not too bad. what I am really talking about is people who do this for a hobby where time is not too much of an issue but no effort is made to smooth the panel or professionals who just weld and grind and call it done but the customer then has to pay the painter to plod up a panel that could just as easily have been finished by the metal guy, the money has to be spent somewhere.

A prime example is a customer who bought wings from somewhere else because he thought my price too high but by the time I had made them fit and dressed them out (sorry planished them) they had cost considerably more than I was going to charge. If I had not finished them he would have had to pay the painter to do it and they would never have looked right. I still never made them perfect or even as good as the set I made for his next car.

Kerry, you are right its best to planish the worst of the distortion or damage before starting to file. Planishing is like colour by numbers, its not so hard to do, the hardest part is learning to use the dolly properly.

John, I do a similar thing to you with the Kryon primer. I tend to use a little red oxide from a rattle can.


Manny, that is the idea, its hard to get everything perfect but a little work goes a long way, and the first eighty percent towards perfection takes about the same time as the next twenty percent so as others have said its down to what the customer will pay. I sort of force the issue with my customers because they come to me because I can get good results so I am very reluctant to do anything less.

Barry You need the right type of file to do this properly something that is hard to come by here in the UK now as well. I may have to get some sent from the States. I have seen your work and you get good results.

Ferguson Peter and Adam I agree with every word, not always possible to get perfection but time spent smoothing the panel in the metal is time saved putting coat upon coat of filler on and endlessly rubbing it down, you only have to watch certain episodes of American Hot Rod to see how much work that is.

Gerry Someone who can paint knows what they are looking for in a smooth panel so they are half way there. When I say dressing I really mean planishing and filing.
The files I use are sometimes called vixen files in the USA but also known as body files there I believe. You can buy them from Dagger tools, they also sell the flipper files (I think they are listed as slapper files) The file holders can be made or bought I think Dagger do them as well.

David
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Last edited by David Gardiner; 09-09-2012 at 11:21 AM.
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  #13  
Old 09-09-2012, 11:41 AM
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David, I AM the painter, and were I to metal finish in the manner you suggest, I would have less business than I have now. Everything I do gets at least one coat of epoxy primer aside from polished trim work.

VERY often I am dealing with original die marks as well. Nothing to do with work I did, but noticed visible waves in a panel. No amount of filing was goona help here, had to either bury it in primer or shrink it to tighten it and lose some surface area.

Also, i have and can get to a polished ready surface with little or no filing. It all starts from making the pattern to weld joint to making certain the panel is in proper arrangement, all these factors come into play well before metal finishing can happen.

I remember Steve Hamilton went to work on a fender part he made, and just for fun wanted to polish it because he ended up making a complete fender. The jist of his comments were the majority of the work was from a primer finish to a ready to polish finish, meaning much more than half.

I am not a believer in the statement or belief that there is any such thing as "free" time. That is a whole another debate, LOL

My question is this, why is filing to perfection any superior than getting it to a primer ready finish, other than personal pride? Now, with Kirkham's polished and grained copper and alum car, ok, suuuure, I can see the point in showing off.

From a business standpoint, and a value to the customer standpoint, I cant recommend the value in such a high level of workmanship in the metal itself.

I know I am goona ruffle some feathers with this, but I do what I get paid to do, and a lil more.

Up until last week, I was a mechanic at the dealership, I was not referring to new cars.

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  #14  
Old 09-09-2012, 11:52 AM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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I also never have any trouble with panel thinning because I file to highlight only, I don’t file to try and make the panel straight. Once the panel is highlighted I bump up the lows and or tap down the highs and repeat the process of dusting on some Krylon, highlight filing the panel followed by further straightening as many times as the process is needed. Preparing parts for a chrome plating shop is the most tedious, do that for a while and you will likely to turn into a pretty good metal finisher and also learn about welding different metals. Metal finishing for other body shops is cake, after all these years I know what they want.

Someone mentioned using machinist’s dye to color the panel and that works fine but I only use files to highlight file a panel, I’ve never found that sandpaper can cut as true as a file can, mainly because most sanding boards have a thin foam backer. Also being able to lock in an exact curve with an adjustable file holder can be advantageous at times. Just use care when running your hand over a filed panel, you can cut it or end up with a metal sliver in it…. OUCH. ~ John Buchtenkirch
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  #15  
Old 09-09-2012, 01:12 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Marty, if you read what I wrote you will see that I was not advocating getting a polished finish on every panel every time. I have never said that is what I do. I was saying that I coould not see the point in shaping panels to a very rough state then welding them together, grinding the weld and calling it done.

When I was at college a business lecturer (business studies was part of the course as was business law) said that us students would have to do low quality work sometimes in order to have enough work to keep us going. I argued that that if one did that one would only get that sort of work. I vowed that if I did start a business I would only work up to a quality and not down to a price. I have never had less than six months work booked in advance even inthe two recessions I have now been through.

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Last edited by David Gardiner; 09-09-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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  #16  
Old 09-09-2012, 01:17 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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John I agree with what you say its pretty much how I work- one exception is I don't see the point in the adjustable file blade holders.

David
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  #17  
Old 09-09-2012, 01:29 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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When I make parts like this radiator shell I have to get the part to a metal finish that does not need any further work and can just be polished and chrome plated.




For most parts I try to get a good finish that will need very little 'prep' work by the painter. I am not saying that I achieve this every time for every part of every car. Time and money come into it for anyone. I just believe it is possible for anyone to get close to a 'paintable' finish without a massive amount of work, its whether you would rather leave the work to the painter or do it in the metal.



There is a big difference between a little skim of polyester and quarter inch thick filler that some parts I have seen made would need. In the old days the metal would be 'finished' anything left would be filled with stopper and primered out. I try to work to that sort of standard.

David
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Last edited by David Gardiner; 09-09-2012 at 01:42 PM.
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  #18  
Old 09-09-2012, 01:37 PM
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David, ok, let me explain a lil further without getting into the minutia of technique, that with the method I use, I can get it that close without the use of a file. For the most part. I do use one, but its not my "go to" tool. Remember also, the antique, then accepted method of Pick and File discussed in old body shop trade magazines is not widely used, or advocated anymore. Perhaps that is where the file got a negative reputation from.

I like adjustable blade holders for reverse curves. I have 3 different tooth counts too, dont know them off the top of my head, for VERY light finding highs n lows, I use the finest tooth I have. I also have a set of reveal files that are handy for a number of things, including filing out high spots in my clear

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  #19  
Old 09-09-2012, 10:22 PM
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Default Work up to a quality and not down to a price

"Work up to a quality and not down to a price"
Very well put. In my lifetime sometimes that is a hard thig to do consistantly.Insurance only gave so much time or you starve.
Funny I have cut or impaled those metal file shavings once in a while.
I have to say since joining this forum My last repair and paint on a wrecked Dodge diesel belonging to a friend didn't have much filler and turned out really nice.
David, I have a question off topic.You can PM me if you wish.
I am working on a 1950 Chev axle and I could swear you shrunk the axle eyes when you dropped yours. How did you do it? Mine are pretty loose.

Thanks Gerry
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  #20  
Old 09-09-2012, 10:38 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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David, I'm not sure I understand what your point is?

Ok, you use a file and like it and think it is the best way. You work to a very, very high level of craftsmanship. I can accept and admire your skill and work.

I don't think you are suggesting that it is necessary for everyone to work this way are you?

Do you agree that there are valid business models where people can make a decent living working to a lower level of quality, meet customer expectations and budget, and still be able to sleep at night?
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