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Old 03-12-2010, 09:05 PM
Charley Davidson Charley Davidson is offline
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Default New Tool & Method Development

I have always had a tendency to reinvent the wheel, build a better mouse trap or figure out yet another way to skin a cat. So I was reading a thread on MM where Captain Kirk was building a shrinking machine that looks pretty promising (don't really know what it looks like as I couldn't see any pictures)

so naturally my mind starts picturing a simple way to shrink consistantly and uniformly and as deep as you would like. What would be a nice or max depth one would want for a shrinker?

Secondly I know this is a pretty sharing community but a man has to make a living also. so how do you go about designing something like this and protecting your R&D time? Everybody here is pretty much capable of building anything out there, so what's the key in keeping this from happening so you can scratch out a modest living?

Also how do I find out if my design is already out there being used or was a flop?
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Old 03-12-2010, 09:26 PM
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Joe Hartson Joe Hartson is offline
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The metal shaping community freely shares many of the tools that the members develop for personal use only. They are not to be copied for personal gain. When a product is developed for profit it is usually not shared openly.

I sent you a PM with a link that you might want to look at.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:01 PM
TheRodDoc TheRodDoc is offline
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If you design something that works well and looks good and is something that hasn't been made yet and is sellable someone will for sure take your idea and try sell it if you post it on the net. These web sites are full of people just watching for ideas to make and sell. Only part of the people are here to discuss metal shaping.

So if you don't want that DON'T SHOW IT.

If you don't care then go ahead and post your ideas.


I have the ultimate bead roller designed and built. Designed it about 2 years ago. I solved all the problems and needs for a bead roller. And added several extras that no one has even thought of yet. Rolls beads with no sheet warpage. I am a metalshaper and I do know what one needs to be the best.
The only one like it in the world that I know of and would love to show it to the people on these sites but can't for it would be stollen for sure.

So now I'm not quite sure what to do with it. A lot of it would have to be patented and that takes time and money.
I would like to sell them but not sure I have the money or time or selling abillity.

I have a tipping machine designed that tips a tight bend without haveing to force the sheet up by hand and bend 120 degrees if needed. Tips a lip on inside or outside curves stretching or shrinking as needed as it bends.
Would love to show it too but can't. For it would be stollen for sure.
These both are larger more complicated professional machines.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Charley Davidson Charley Davidson is offline
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Thanks Joe for the insight.

Is there any one person that would be near Nashville that would be good to work with on this or should I first build a rough prototype making sure it is worth pursuing?

The design I have in my head would allow for small tight tucks to wider tucks and depths from shallow to aggressive. And possibly reach in as far as 24 inches.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:24 PM
Charley Davidson Charley Davidson is offline
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Over the years I have designed things or come up with an idea and never acted on them just to find them on the market 4 or 5 years later.

one such thing was stolen from me from the owner of a magic shop, he shortly there after was able to sell his shop and quit working.

I came up with a nice jig for straight line ripping lumber so called an attorney to see about patents. His advice was to mass produce them and flood the market as it's gonna be copied anyhow. I just decided to use it in my shop.

Then quite a few years ago I came up with the idea of marrying 2 Harley engines side by side making a V quad. Last year at Sturgis in the camp ground I stayed in a guy unloads a bike that looked somewhat odd. After further investigation he had developed the very same engine I had the idea for many years before. He never stole my idea it was just parallel thinking and he acted on it.
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:48 PM
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HEATNBEAT HEATNBEAT is offline
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the HF spies are out there just waiting..... they will have in their stores before your paint is dry
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:22 AM
cwilliamrose cwilliamrose is offline
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Charley,

Patents are only good for dragging someone into court, and only then in the US (for US patents). If you produce a truly new and wonderful machine, it will be copied. If not during development then certainly after the first sales. You have to have a big pile of money for lawyers if you want to pursue someone for patent infringement. And another big pile to try to collect any money awarded to you if you are successful in court.

Unless you're going sell a bunch of these machines and want to use (some or all) the profits to pay lawyers I think I'd just build it and not worry too much about the rest. IMHO the metal shaping community is too small to make much money building tools............
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:48 AM
Tuck Tuck is offline
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And keep in mind that HF doesn't give a tinkers damn about pattents, and will rip off anything they can get their hands on. If you don't want the Chinese to make money on your idea, don't share it. Most everything shared here is being built and sold, and a lot of it by "good ole American metalshapers" who picked up the ideas here. Of course, they will flately state that they came up with it in a dream, or while intoxicated.

Share away, it's good for the soul, and the Chinese economy. Remember, they are buying our Treasury Bonds.

Tuck
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:50 AM
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Charley: The big surprise is even if the thing is better than sliced bread,most folks will say I can do that and slice their own bread.
When I started making the TuckPucks, I thought that I might have trouble keeping up with production. That turned out to be less than a problem. I was a bit surprised at the lack of response. I still am. I thought that what I was asking for my product would be worth it to avoid the job of cutting a tapered recess in a stump. It turns out that I was very wrong.
I have sold several hundred of them around the planet but sometimes I go months without a sale. There have been around 30,000 hits on the YouTube video and the sales are just every now and then. Now I will have some sales at Sun-n-Fun because that is what we use for training.
We are an industrious and capable group that can quite easily make just about anything. When I first introduced the TuckPuck I sent some free samples to a couple of the regional meets. I was looking at the photos from the meet and saw not 2 TuckPucks but 3. Someone had already made their own and brought it to the meet. I was told that it didn't work as well as mine.
The market for metalshaping tools is not as big as we might think. If I had decided to get a patent, I would be tens of thousands of dollars in the hole and left with not much more than a puzzled look on my face.

Last edited by mr.c; 03-13-2010 at 12:01 PM.
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Old 03-13-2010, 11:53 AM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Charley, I'm a couple hours south of Nashville and would be happy to talk with you.

For the reasons stated, we never patented our wheels. Not worth the effort and cost. If the idea is copied offshore by oneflugdung LTD, you can take them to court, spend jillions and the day they have to appear they're suddenly out of business and a new company twoflungdung LTD is now making the machine. Lawyers get rich and you get nothing.

That said, this is a pretty tight knit community and folks will defend you against other folks copying your products. One of the threads that was lost on MM had to do with the guy in England that ripped off Hoosier Pattern's Ewheel. They got ripped pretty good. Wasn't illegal what they did but I doubt the uproar helped their sales.

Similar thing happened to me. After I called a guy on copying our machine, they quit. Actually it was an overreaction on my part because their copy was really, REALLY bad.

Fairly early in the reciprocating machine thread, one of our well known members decided to build a product based on it. He announced it on the HAMB and got ripped to shreds there and here and was subsequently banned. Again, nothing illegal but unethical as all hell. This guy is a professional metalshaper and really crapped in his cereal bowl as far as his reputation goes. You can read the thread and see the details.

Finally, I'm not sure there is a large market for a manual shrinking machine. Stumps and tucking forks are simply too cheap and work too well. Kirk's shrinking fixture was a plate with two vice grips to hold the metal at the side while the tuck was crushed. The vice grips ensured the metal could not slip away and had to shrink. Absolutely worked but I'm not sure it is faster than someone who has mastered tuck or stump shrinking.
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