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  #1251  
Old 05-04-2019, 07:27 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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Got to admire your sticking close to the design. So many times I see the orig renderings and then what came along - WHOA!
Thanks Kent. Ray and I spent a lot of time getting the design down. Months. We didn't stop till we had had exactly what I wanted. It would be foolish and wasteful to deviate.
BTW, As mentioned in a previous post, where were you and what were you doing in the early 80's? Harrah's?
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  #1252  
Old 05-04-2019, 07:38 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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administrators should start a new class for people like you: "metal shaper of the year". You're my nominee for 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and probably also 2020!
Jan, I ask for nothing. I'm repaying a debt here. Information is the ultimate commodity. I can relay what I do. It isn't the only way, it's just one way. If it helps someone in their search for knowledge, my work is done.
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  #1253  
Old 05-04-2019, 07:41 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Originally Posted by Jack 1957 View Post
Thanks Kent. Ray and I spent a lot of time getting the design down. Months. We didn't stop till we had had exactly what I wanted. It would be foolish and wasteful to deviate.
BTW, As mentioned in a previous post, where were you and what were you doing in the early 80's? Harrah's?

Hi Jack,
Left HAC in 1977, to finish a 250LM I had been doing at nights. By 1981 - 2- 3, a complete Ferrari 166 comp car metal resto, and then same on RSK F2 and Carrera GTL for Collier Historics.

It was all race metal stuff from '79 to '90.
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  #1254  
Old 05-04-2019, 08:03 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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Originally Posted by Superleggera View Post
Get it on wheels and roll it outside so you can stand back and get better views of it (and at distance) and at the ride height it will be sitting finished relative to the ground.
Mark, we're on the same page. That's exactly where I'm headed. Once I have the roof frame done and before I skin it, I want to set it on the ground and get eyes on it. Typically, as a rule of thumb, a custom should have a 2:1 belt to roof ratio as seen finished. That includes any crown in the roof. I want the roof height to appear appropriate in proportion to the body. Not chopped.

The body, from rockers to beltline are 34". The side windows will be about 12". By the numbers, this should be about one third but I already know that it will look slammed. Too severely chopped. I'm putting about a 5" crown in the roof that should make the belt to roof height look correct for the body. (17" belt to top of the roof) The body is sectioned 2" and the rockers will be 5" to 7" off the ground.
In short, yes,watch the numbers. But eyeball trumps any numbers you can come up with. That's why I want to see it on the ground.
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Last edited by Jack 1957; 06-13-2019 at 09:04 PM.
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  #1255  
Old 05-04-2019, 08:36 PM
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Hi Jack,


It was all race metal stuff from '79 to '90.
I remember that time frame very well, Kent. Heady times. I was doing very well campaigning a garage built drag racer hitting any race east of the Mississippi. Probably the most productive decade of my life. Ahh... to be young again.
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Last edited by Jack 1957; 05-04-2019 at 08:38 PM.
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  #1256  
Old 05-05-2019, 07:09 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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Kind of a short related story. Some 10 or 15 years ago I read a story about stylists written by a retired GM stylist. After they get the clay body pretty close to what they feel is correct they cover it with plastic so it sort of looks like its painted and then they would roll it outside in a courtyard to get a better idea what it looks like in natural light. Of course stylists working on other GM projects would also check it out and comment because final sales are so important to the company’s bottom line. Sounds great but at the time I just had to wonder how the Pontiac Aztek made it past all those professional stylists ~ John Buchtenkirch
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  #1257  
Old 05-05-2019, 07:53 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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Natural light is very overwhelming and the outdoors has a diminishing impact- everything looks smaller. Both are invaluable, in terms of project design and resolution. It's also hard to work alone and still be able to see what you're actually doing.

I did what Mark & John describe last Saturday for the same reasons. Took my current Moto Guzzi project to an outdoor bike event for display, with tank and seat in clay mock up. It allowed me to see the bike outdoors, from greater distances and to get honest input from total strangers. Afterwards, I made a few changes and it looks better.

Making the roof will be a great process to watch, Jack. Your 2:1 factor is a great piece of information- thank you for sharing & explaning.
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  #1258  
Old 05-07-2019, 08:11 PM
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Jack 1957 Jack 1957 is offline
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I got my perimeter frame pieces back so it's time to start on the bows.


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I need to make three bows with pretty tight radius bends on each end and a smooth, low crown through their lengths.
They get approximately 85 degree bends on a 7" radius on each end. This is pretty tight for 1 1/4" square tube with 1/8" wall thickness. Without dedicated machines it can be tricky but not impossible, or even difficult.. I don't use sand. I'm not impressed with the success rate. If you get it right it will work but I'm not interested in turning the garage into a sand box and inconsistent results make it a crap shoot at best.

I'm going to show you a method that's accurate and gets consistently good results. I'll cover it in detail because you will most likely end up needing to bend square tube sometime along the way.
I made a rig like the one below years ago and tore the garage up looking for it. I found it but it was for 1" tube. I'm using 1 1/4" tube so I had to make another one.

I started with a strip of 1" x1/8" steel flat stock. The ID of my tubing is .970" so I cut about 20 squares from it and ground the edges until they were .935" square or less. I rounded the corners and drilled a 1/8" hole in the center of each one. I cut one end off a bicycle brake cable and pulled the inner cable out. Next, slip one of the metal squares on then I used 1/2" rubber faucet washers to seperate the steel squares. I have them about 3/8" apart. Continue stringing them up till you have a longer length than the bend area you'll be making. Cut the outter cable housing shorter than the inner, pull them tight to snug up the squares and clamp with some vice grips. Put a piece of tape at the length you will need to align the rig with the bend area.

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Ready to go

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This is a low grade HF 12 ton pipe bender (Not to be confused with an actual tube bender). It's primitive, clumsy and not very well made but it will do the job. I found a die that is very close to the 7" radius that I need so I used that. Insert the squares until the tape on the cable housing is at the end of the tube and they will be centered in the bend area. Put some pieces of scrap metal where the pins touch the tubing so the pins won't dimple the tubing and carefully start the bend. There is a lot of stretching and shrinking going on in this process so try not to bend too far. You can "unbend" if you go too far but this material is work hardening in the bending process, so flipping it over and trying to straighten out the bend greatly increases the chances of tearing the tube. I think I took the tube off to check with the template nearly half a dozen times per bend. Patience... You'll get there.
Notice in the third picture below, you can see consistently spaced lines where the squares are supporting the tube.

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Last edited by Jack 1957; 05-07-2019 at 10:27 PM.
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  #1259  
Old 05-07-2019, 08:46 PM
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I got a nice smooth bend with no kinks, no collapsed walls or tearing or crumpling. The important part is that I can reproduce this bend consistently as many times as I need to.

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The arrows show some slight markings from the squares. They're visible but you can barely feel them when you run your hand over them. Nothing even near what would be considered crumpling. A nice smooth bend that fits the template perfectly.

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The outter face of the tubing sunk down some until it hit the squares. To me, this is acceptable and was expected. In order to ensure that I'd be able to get the rig out of the tubing after it was bent, I had to leave a lot of clearance between the quares and the inside of the tubing. I left at least .035" clearance inside. It's a trade off and I can live with a little sagging on the outter wall as long as it comes in evenly.

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Below is a picture of the inside surface of the bend. You can see some slight raised areas (circled) where the squares supported the tube evenly and kept it from collapsing.

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Below is the second bend on the other end of this bow. It is identical to the first one. This method allows repeatability and accuracy. If I were making something that was cosmetic and would be seen in its final form, this might not be acceptable but my intent is structural integrity. With the bends being this tight, there's no way I could have done these like I did with the main rear hoop. (By hand with blocks on the bench) In the end, it looks good, the tubing where the bends are is as strong as it was before it was bent and it fits the template perfectly. That's one down, two to go,

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Last edited by Jack 1957; 05-08-2019 at 08:11 PM.
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  #1260  
Old 05-07-2019, 10:44 PM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
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Absolutely sweet idea Jack. Once again very nice results with inexpensive and or shop built tooling. I love it and thank you for sharing. ~ John Buchtenkirch
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