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  #101  
Old 08-04-2018, 06:49 PM
kcoffield kcoffield is offline
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Originally Posted by heinke View Post
...........I think the top chop has made a world of difference in the look.
Now you're talkin'. That's looking good. Is your track wider than the original Miura?
Best,
Kelly
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  #102  
Old 08-04-2018, 10:37 PM
steve3 steve3 is offline
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the black frit on the windshield throws it off, cant tell how big the frame is but body color might help or really make it bad. There is a fairly simple fix for door glass can expand on if needed
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  #103  
Old 08-05-2018, 11:21 AM
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heinke heinke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kcoffield View Post
Now you're talkin'. That's looking good. Is your track wider than the original Miura?
Best,
Kelly
Yes, for example the rear track on the Miura SV is 60.63 inches and mine will be somewhere between 64 to 66 inches depending on the rim backspace I end up with. The front track is a bit less but similar proportions to the difference in rear track.
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  #104  
Old 08-05-2018, 12:04 PM
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heinke heinke is offline
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Originally Posted by steve3 View Post
the black frit on the windshield throws it off, cant tell how big the frame is but body color might help or really make it bad. There is a fairly simple fix for door glass can expand on if needed
Steve: yes, please expand on the door glass topic. This is my first crack with electric door glass regulators and I'll take whatever help I can get.

You've also picked up on difference in windshield post style between original Miura and Corvette. The original Miura had a sheetmetal post where about 1 inch of it is externally visible, painted same color as car's exterior, and then a rubber windshield seal with a 3/4" wide polished aluminum trim ring. All this results in a windshield post that's very externally visible. These pics show it well.





The Corvette windshield post is also sheet metal but the glass is glued directly to it. There's a narrow trim piece covering the glass edge but it's painted black to match the glass edge color and the rubber window seal that runs up the post. All of the post sheet metal is hidden and thus not externally visible. I believe the intent was to make the post blend in between the two pieces of glass. This pic gives the idea.



I think the current trim piece is aluminum and could be polished out to highlight the post. I could probably also attach a thin aluminum strip between it and side window that could be painted for a more visible post. I think the main size limitations will be making sure there's clearance so the windshield glass can be replaced (if broken) and staying clear of side glass as doors are being closed.

I guess this raises a good visual design question. Is the externally visible windshield post a key part of the "Miura look"? Or is it a "six of one, half dozen of another" kind of thing? I'm thinking it might be important but I'd like to get the opinions from others on this question.
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  #105  
Old 08-05-2018, 02:21 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Joel, I commend you for this project and your approach. My thoughts on your photoshop renderings is that they appear a bit stubby compared to the Miura. There does not appear to be as much swoop between the fenders and the nose overhang seems shorter.
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  #106  
Old 08-05-2018, 03:11 PM
dave powell dave powell is offline
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I agree with Kerry, also the black back ground and shadows. Make the lower parts of the front fender and rear quarter panel,fade or disappear into the black...just a thought,keep up the good work..
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  #107  
Old 08-05-2018, 03:40 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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Joel,

It's definitely improving, but still can improve imho. After nearly two decades as a full time professional sculptor, I still have zero CAD and nominal photoshop skills. It just isn't how I work. Basic methods still solve much of what I need. Two methods that I use extensively to resolve discrepancies are:

1 . Using a light box or a big sunny window to do overlays, which is cheaper and faster than printing transparencies, for comparison of similar compositions or shared details.

2. Printing any image (or using that same light box or big sunny window or a mirror) to view the image in reverse to see all things more clearly.

What I would do at this point-

To me, the final rendering continues to be compromised by the inadequate focal length or distance between you and your subject. The original Muira images demonstrate the plane of the wheel faces are perpendicular to the viewer. The pics of your c4 chassis have the same wheel faces as oppositely convex to the viewer. Not cool. Combined with the open space around the wheel well, this visual noise will diminish the dimension of the wheel to the viewer which in turn will make the body more dominant and massive. Not cool. This can cause some loss in the swoopiness mentioned by Kerry, because it is the roundness of the wheel that helps suggest the swoopiness is present. It is comparable to the concept of underlying anatomical structures creating the viewed surface. Hopefully this makes sense.

Before going further, take pics from a greater distance to make the wheel faces appear in plane and perpendicular to viewer. Then Enlarge the image as needed and crop to size. Then fill the empty space around them with shadow or darkness before doing the body. Even better, use photoshop (I do use gimp) to make the C4 chassis image into a transparency, add that to a black background to eliminate ALL visual noise (like the chaos of masonry, buildings and angled ladders in the background) and then add the body. Or you should add all that visual noise in background and visible empty wheel well space to the original Muira pics. Until you do you're comparing apples to oranges and it will continue to be an unnecessary struggle to perceive & analyze the composition.

After that, flip the image you have created and compare/evaluate it. The simple act of reversing - flipping image in hard copy or using a mirror- is the fastest way to see what imbalance may not be obvious in the original format. When it looks good & justifies even when reversed, it's usually right.

As noted, this is what I would do. There's other & probably better ways to do it, but maybe it will give you a couple of ideas.

The top chop makes a big & positive difference. Keep going. I'm enjoying what you post very much.
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  #108  
Old 08-05-2018, 05:17 PM
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heinke heinke is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
Joel, I commend you for this project and your approach. My thoughts on your photoshop renderings is that they appear a bit stubby compared to the Miura. There does not appear to be as much swoop between the fenders and the nose overhang seems shorter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dave powell View Post
I agree with Kerry, also the black back ground and shadows. Make the lower parts of the front fender and rear quarter panel,fade or disappear into the black...just a thought,keep up the good work..
Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffrod View Post
Joel,

It's definitely improving, but still can improve imho.

The top chop makes a big & positive difference. Keep going. I'm enjoying what you post very much.
Thanks for the feedback guys. For what it's worth, I completely agree with you. It's partly that my Photoshop skills still are basic at best and partly that my objective with the renderings has not been to refine the body shape. I still think the rendition that Superleggera/Mark did is the best so far.

The objective for my renderings has been just to validate the glass shape and location. In other words, when the rendering has given me glass shape validation, I can suspend additional efforts to find suitable glass.

Now that I think about it a bit, my basic approach to this project has been to 1) design outside-in, 2) then work inside out, and 3) then finalize on the outside surface shape. So what do I mean by this.

1. Design outside in: Firstly, I have been working to identify the visible fixed shape components that will be used on this car. Examples are windshield, side glass, and rims/tires. One of the first decisions made for the chassis design was tire/rim size, wheelbase and track. The chassis was also designed outside in. I've also been working to identify and obtain front and rear light assemblies as these are also highly visible fixed shape items. It's important to me to start with the visible fixed shape components as I have very little to no ability to change their shape later. So in other words, start with the things over which you have minimal shape control and work from there.

2. Work inside out: I have been building the car starting from the inside then working outward. For example, I started the build with the chassis, the cars core component. I next added on suspension in order to precisely locate the wheels. I next added the door post/windshield/cowl unit to locate the windshield. Then the side glass, etc. The challenge here is that you need to determine precise locations for these items without having any bodywork to give validation. I started using cardboard to fill the spaces but it wasn't working that well for me. So then I did it virtually using Photoshop. That has worked well so far as it showed the windshield was too high and the wheels are too small.

3. Finalize outside surface: I haven't really even started on this one yet. The real work on this item to me starts with the design and fabrication of a body buck. I'll probably do that with CAD software of some sort but I haven't even started figuring those details out yet. Given the fast project progress so far, it's rapidly approaching though. To avoid a bunch of re-work on body design, I think I need to pretty much complete 1 and 2 before jumping into 3. At a minimum, I need to finalize the fixed component selection so their respective measurements can be plugged into the model.


I think your comments are more related to #3 than 1 or 2. You've given some great feedback that will benefit the project greatly. Please keep the feedback coming!
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  #109  
Old 08-05-2018, 05:41 PM
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heinke heinke is offline
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Question Mockup Rim/Tire question?

What works well for temporary mockup wheels when obtaining the actual rims looks like it will take a bunch of time?

So here's the context for this question. I have been overly optimistic on finding a source for the Campo look alike rims for the Miura project. It's clear to me that the rims will need to be custom made and the typical lead time is about 2 months (or more) for this. I haven't even been able to work out the details on this so far, so that 2 month clock isn't even ticking yet. Bottom line, I won't have rims any time soon and it would help to have something closer to the planned size than the ones I've been using so far. Part of the challenge with the current rims is their extreme backspacing. The rear wheels hit the suspension so I can't even move the chassis with the rear wheels on.

It occurred to me that I could buy the tires now and maybe dummy up the rim part. Maybe simulate the rim with plywood and tape a picture of the rim on the outside. Has anyone done this with success before?

I guess I could look for some real cheap-o rims and either sell them or dispose of them after I get the real ones. This feels like somewhat of a waste though.

I thought it worth asking the question to see if there's an inexpensive but workable way to address this challenge.
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  #110  
Old 08-10-2018, 06:45 PM
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heinke heinke is offline
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Post Attaching windshield/doorpost assembly

The previous mockups gave me confidence that the proper horizontal and vertical placement for the windshield has been determined. It was now time to attach the windshield and door post assembly to the chassis. The first step is to ensure the chassis and windshield are leveled up. I use a digital level for this to ensure precision down to a 10th of a degree.



I had used small wooden blocks to set the windshield height during mockup and here’s what I had to start with.



I decided the drilled out spot weld holes across the doorpost bottom would make for good bolting points. A small block of ¾” thick aluminum was used for bottom mount such that I could tie the floor and the small chassis side upright together with the door post. A second ¾” aluminum block was used above that with bolts running from chassis upright through to the door post.



This gives two very strong mounting points for the door post. Next some triangulation was added. The Corvette door posts have a hood latch mount at the front top and these had triangulation bars running down to the frame. As luck would have it, these bars could be re-used along with the hood latches. I cut the frame end off the bar at an angle such that I could weld an attachment plate on it and then bolt it into the chassis right next to the front bulkhead.



With these mounting points, the windshield is now firmly and securely mounted to the chassis. I will add some sheet aluminum mounts on the rear and backside of the door posts even though they’ll probably only add marginal additional strength.

The way the windshield and door post mounts worked out, it really looks like the chassis was designed for the C4 Corvette assembly as a donor. There’s even provision for a speaker mount in the chassis foot box and the door post wraps right around where the speaker is positioned. It’s like these two assemblies were meant to go together but the truth is that Charlie included what he thought I’d need in the chassis with no idea that I’d be using these parts in the car. So far, luck has really been on my side for the Miura project!
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