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  #11  
Old 08-16-2018, 07:50 AM
jmcglynn jmcglynn is offline
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Shop space is probably the main reason IMO.

I used to look at those multipurpose woodworking machines (table saw, jointer, planer and shaper all in one) and have the same question.

It is possibly cheaper than buying all separate machines too. You can't compare the cost of a real machine to one you imagine you can build - or even one you've actually built. Until you build it you don't really know what it costs, and of course you are trading free labor in scrounging parts and fabrication time. Not everyone can or is willing to do that.
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  #12  
Old 08-16-2018, 07:51 AM
toreadorxlt toreadorxlt is offline
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It's mostly because these machines are not designed by people who shape for a living. I have a one car garage filled to the gills with machines and I'd rather have that, than switch one machine around to do its intended purpose half as good as the standalone version could.
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  #13  
Old 08-16-2018, 11:47 AM
HappyGoLucky HappyGoLucky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcglynn View Post
Shop space is probably the main reason IMO.

I used to look at those multipurpose woodworking machines (table saw, jointer, planer and shaper all in one) and have the same question.

It is possibly cheaper than buying all separate machines too. You can't compare the cost of a real machine to one you imagine you can build - or even one you've actually built. Until you build it you don't really know what it costs, and of course you are trading free labor in scrounging parts and fabrication time. Not everyone can or is willing to do that.
A real machine? What exactly is that.... Anyways an overpriced Baileigh is probably the worst investment anyone can make... unless they have a million bucks in savings... because that kind of cash investment invested right could easily return a million dollars over a decade or so... unless it was invested in a machine like a baileigh... where most people will actually lose money. Now on the other hand... if a person invests a couple grand... or less in a machine they design, or build from some other persons blueprint then money is in the bank on a budget build. That being said a machine can be built in a week easily if someone is motivated to move that fast. What is a weeks wages worth to most people? Even if you make $100 an hour at standard 40 hours ( most people don't) That figure gross is around $4,000... so if you pretend like that is your income plus maybe a couple grand in materials, etc... you still only have 6 grand in one machine. That being said... I can round up materials for a machine for under $1000 regular price, or under $500 if I scrounge. Point being.... $60,000 for a machine like mh37 is a terrible investment... even $30,000 for a midrange Baileigh after sales taxes is added in.... is a terrible investment. I have seen Steve's latest p max style machine... and that is exactly the type of build I would prefer... @toreadorxlt and yes I agree with you Steve... on the people designing the expensive machines have no idea what is ideal for metalshapers.... a shop filled ( or a small car garage ) with various machines is best, as you noted.

In terms of a real estate issue and not having the room as an excuse for buying an expensive multipurpose machine... that bucket doesn't hold water up either... because most people have the room, or can add it for that price invested. ( unless you live in New York City, etc.)

Budget builds like Steve's and others are the way to go in my eyes.... even if the build takes some time to finish.
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Last edited by HappyGoLucky; 08-16-2018 at 11:59 AM.
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  #14  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:05 PM
HappyGoLucky HappyGoLucky is offline
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Originally Posted by tbody321 View Post
How do you plan on designing these machines? will you be using cad or hand sketches based on ideas in your head or following similar designs others have done. By no means am I a metal shaper but have had the pleasure of using Kerry's Ewheel , and the forum built reciprocating machine and kick shrink machine... The kick shrink machine is as smooth as they come..
What I have found that works best in machine design.... is a basic design in Cad first. What that implies is a frame spec from a side view and maybe some basic components. Knowing basically what you need for the (Die Window) or the area where dies are placed... Their basic size, shape etc... is taken into consideration. Then the other pieces can be designed in your head... which is basically what CAD is... only CAD is a format where others can view your designs.... in blueprint, or model form. (Revisions are simpler when it is in your head on the fly too.) Now if you want to save the dimensions as you build ( I do this alot on small builds ) and then document it in 2d, or 3d CAD... that can be done for replicating, or sharing the machine design for a group build.
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Last edited by HappyGoLucky; 08-16-2018 at 12:12 PM.
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  #15  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:12 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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When you're a hobbyist looking for a quick way to get a result, spending $10k+ may be impractical. If you're a professional/business needing to manage tax liability, that $50k+ purchase can capture income as an asset while mitigating taxable earnings. keeping things positive here vs blanket criticism is better for all of us. Driving my rusty $350 truck for 20 yrs, I see no need or desire for a new truck. No need to put down people who want or afford to do differently....

I'm not big on multi-tools. Seems like they often end up doing only 1-2 of their claimed functions well, regularly or both. Laying hands on a piece of foreign equipment before buying or building makes a lot of sense to me, even if it costs time and money and travel to do so.

Watching members like GoJeep Marcus and Jack 1957 post threads of great builds in spartan shops with basic tools is at least as impressive as seeing what the full-time pros do. Skill and expertise don't come from any machine, no matter what it cost.
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  #16  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:15 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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While I share your opinions about multi purpose machines, there is a business model that supports buying vs building.

1- Not everyone has the tools, equipment, temperament, and knowledge to design and build a sophisticated machine. Shaping metal and fabrication/machining are different skill sets.

2- Not every design results in a successful result. I cut up quite a few ewheels that did not perform as I wanted rather than put our name on a sub-standard machine. For your one week example, you might spend that week and end up with a non-functional piece of welded steel. I had quite a few customers who became customers because of exactly that. They had built a machine that didn't perform so rather than throw good money (and time) after bad so they bought one of ours.

3- Tools in that price range can be financed for considerable time. Additionally, there are tax advantages to leasing or depreciating capital equipment. This eases the cost per month and allows the owner to earn more from the machine that the payment costs.

There are more but you get the idea. You might enjoy and have the skills to design and build...someone else might not. That person is better off doing what they do best and using profits to purchase machines that help them be more productive. One size doesn't fit all.

Finally, I'll say that several of our members are owners of the machines you are slamming. They made a decision that the purchase was right for them and may not appreciate your slamming their purchases.
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  #17  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:24 PM
HappyGoLucky HappyGoLucky is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
While I share your opinions about multi purpose machines, there is a business model that supports buying vs building.

1- Not everyone has the tools, equipment, temperament, and knowledge to design and build a sophisticated machine. Shaping metal and fabrication/machining are different skill sets.

2- Not every design results in a successful result. I cut up quite a few ewheels that did not perform as I wanted rather than put our name on a sub-standard machine. For your one week example, you might spend that week and end up with a non-functional piece of welded steel. I had quite a few customers who became customers because of exactly that. They had built a machine that didn't perform so rather than throw good money (and time) after bad so they bought one of ours.

3- Tools in that price range can be financed for considerable time. Additionally, there are tax advantages to leasing or depreciating capital equipment. This eases the cost per month and allows the owner to earn more from the machine that the payment costs.

There are more but you get the idea. You might enjoy and have the skills to design and build...someone else might not. That person is better off doing what they do best and using profits to purchase machines that help them be more productive. One size doesn't fit all.

Finally, I'll say that several of our members are owners of the machines you are slamming. They made a decision that the purchase was right for them and may not appreciate your slamming their purchases.

I think everyone knows somebody who either has the tools, or the skills to build a machine... in the modern era almost anything basic can be built and designed for a cheap budget. Heck CAD is free... when I first bought it... it was $5-10,000 a seat.... and that was the first hurdle to get anything designed back then.

The buyers of Baileigh are free to express their thoughts too... Personally I'm really not concerned with their purchase.... ( although I have seen some complain about customers not wanting to pay their rates...) Here, they can give their viewpoints for buying the machine and maybe it does make sense for them. Most people I have seen with the machines were Dealers for Baileigh... so I am not sure exactly what they paid as a final cost. In terms of Tax writeoffs... that is fine... but Taxes themselves would keep me from buying an expensive machine. I would never use a writeoff to justify an expense that didn't make sense and to be honest taxes and the modern taxcodes are why things are so expensive in the US anyhow.
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  #18  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:28 PM
HappyGoLucky HappyGoLucky is offline
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Originally Posted by cliffrod View Post
When you're a hobbyist looking for a quick way to get a result, spending $10k+ may be impractical. If you're a professional/business needing to manage tax liability, that $50k+ purchase can capture income as an asset while mitigating taxable earnings. keeping things positive here vs blanket criticism is better for all of us. Driving my rusty $350 truck for 20 yrs, I see no need or desire for a new truck. No need to put down people who want or afford to do differently....

I'm not big on multi-tools. Seems like they often end up doing only 1-2 of their claimed functions well, regularly or both. Laying hands on a piece of foreign equipment before buying or building makes a lot of sense to me, even if it costs time and money and travel to do so.

Watching members like GoJeep Marcus and Jack 1957 post threads of great builds in spartan shops with basic tools is at least as impressive as seeing what the full-time pros do. Skill and expertise don't come from any machine, no matter what it cost.
Keep driving that Rusty truck... that is exactly what Sam Walton did. A new truck taxes alone cost more than the old truck annually.. sometimes 2-3 times. Anyways... I have 5 designs for Reciprocating machine.. one is in progress... I will have maybe $300 out of pocket ( not counting my labor) in it because I will scrounge ( got the side plate material for free because I bought it with some other stuff which I flipped and made $50 on) Build will be mainly for the cheap guys who build on a low budget.... or who can't afford a really high dollar machine ( similar to my cheap beadroller budget build)

Yes Jack 1957 is building in his Garage... with a good assortment of tools most can afford. His drive and motivation is something that is quite amazing... and that is his best trait.
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Last edited by HappyGoLucky; 08-16-2018 at 12:33 PM.
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  #19  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:29 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Peter, we don't allow pissing contests here. You're entitled to your opinion and we hope you share your design and build.

Play nice.
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  #20  
Old 08-16-2018, 12:37 PM
HappyGoLucky HappyGoLucky is offline
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Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
Peter, we don't allow pissing contests here. You're entitled to your opinion and we hope you share your design and build.

Play nice.
No bad vibes here... and no pissing contests. I will post my build when it is done... I already have the pictures of progress so far.
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