All MetalShaping

Go Back   All MetalShaping > General Metal Shaping Discussion > Basic questions and answers
  Today's Posts Posts for Last 7 Days Posts for Last 14 Days  

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21  
Old 09-09-2012, 11:21 PM
Barry Barry is offline
MetalShaper of the Month
May 2012
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Stellenbosch, South Africa
Posts: 455
Default

@Kerry - my take on it is this: A lot of times the work involved in getting a panel into a true or fair state is no more (sometimes less) than adding filler and then having to get that smooth. I am not a master by any means but do try to get my panels to a state that will require no more than MS primer. Doesn't always work out, but still a good benchmark.
Using the file to guide the dressing process and tell you when you have the panel pretty much true seems pretty natural.
Besides I hate bondo dust...

Getting to a polish or plating ready state is clearly overkill and deciding how far to go is an economic decision unless you are doing this purely for personal satisfaction. 80/20 clearly applies (at Wray's I spent half a day rough shaping, half a day finishing to my standard, and another full day getting it "perfect")
Leaving the process out entirely seems like a waste of most of the effort put into shaping a panel in the first place.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-10-2012, 12:52 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
MetalShaper of the Month
May 2009, Jan 2012, Dec 2014
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marty Comstock View Post
David, ok, let me explain a lil further without getting into the minutia of technique, that with the method I use, I can get it that close without the use of a file. For the most part. I do use one, but its not my "go to" tool. Remember also, the antique, then accepted method of Pick and File discussed in old body shop trade magazines is not widely used, or advocated anymore. Perhaps that is where the file got a negative reputation from.

I like adjustable blade holders for reverse curves. I have 3 different tooth counts too, dont know them off the top of my head, for VERY light finding highs n lows, I use the finest tooth I have. I also have a set of reveal files that are handy for a number of things, including filing out high spots in my clear


Marty
Marty you seem to be putting both sides of the argument. You said more than once you use files then you said that not everyone should use a bodyfile.
I agree that if the file has a bad reputation in the states it may well be from over use with a bulls eye pick, a tool that never caught on over here.

David
__________________
Metalshaping DVD. www.metalshapingzone.com
Metalshaping with hand tools on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

All things are possible.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-10-2012, 12:56 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
MetalShaper of the Month
May 2009, Jan 2012, Dec 2014
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
David, I'm not sure I understand what your point is?

Ok, you use a file and like it and think it is the best way. You work to a very, very high level of craftsmanship. I can accept and admire your skill and work.

I don't think you are suggesting that it is necessary for everyone to work this way are you?

Do you agree that there are valid business models where people can make a decent living working to a lower level of quality, meet customer expectations and budget, and still be able to sleep at night?
Hi Kerry, I thought I stated my point at the begining of the thread, to open up a discussion about the subject and discuss the pros and cons.

I think Barry put the point I was trying to make very well. I don't say that using a file is the ony way to get a good finish on the metal, it is the quickest and best way in my opinion but more what I am saying is why bother at all to shape metal if you are going to leave it half done? I see lots of stuff where the parts are weldied in one photo and painted in the next, unfortunatley people watch TV programs where this is all that is shown and people think its the way it should be done. (using lots of filler)

David
__________________
Metalshaping DVD. www.metalshapingzone.com
Metalshaping with hand tools on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

All things are possible.

Last edited by David Gardiner; 09-10-2012 at 01:10 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-10-2012, 01:07 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
MetalShaper of the Month
May 2009, Jan 2012, Dec 2014
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry View Post
@Kerry - my take on it is this: A lot of times the work involved in getting a panel into a true or fair state is no more (sometimes less) than adding filler and then having to get that smooth. I am not a master by any means but do try to get my panels to a state that will require no more than MS primer. Doesn't always work out, but still a good benchmark.
Using the file to guide the dressing process and tell you when you have the panel pretty much true seems pretty natural.
Besides I hate bondo dust...

Getting to a polish or plating ready state is clearly overkill and deciding how far to go is an economic decision unless you are doing this purely for personal satisfaction. 80/20 clearly applies (at Wray's I spent half a day rough shaping, half a day finishing to my standard, and another full day getting it "perfect")
Leaving the process out entirely seems like a waste of most of the effort put into shaping a panel in the first place.
I agree, the cars that people love were built before the days of plastic filler so over use of filler is not restoration in my opinion.

David
__________________
Metalshaping DVD. www.metalshapingzone.com
Metalshaping with hand tools on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

All things are possible.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-10-2012, 01:17 AM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
MetalShaper of the Month
May 2009, Jan 2012, Dec 2014
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: England
Posts: 5,325
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerry miller View Post
"Work up to a quality and not down to a price"
Very well put. In my lifetime sometimes that is a hard thig to do consistantly.Insurance only gave so much time or you starve.
Funny I have cut or impaled those metal file shavings once in a while.
I have to say since joining this forum My last repair and paint on a wrecked Dodge diesel belonging to a friend didn't have much filler and turned out really nice.
David, I have a question off topic.You can PM me if you wish.
I am working on a 1950 Chev axle and I could swear you shrunk the axle eyes when you dropped yours. How did you do it? Mine are pretty loose.

Thanks Gerry
Gerry I will PM yo shortly.

Doing insurance work is a different matter, my brother was in the crash repair business most of his life until recently so I understand body and paint repair for moderns but I am talking about metalshaping type work.

Thanks for your input Gerrry you understand where I am coming from even though you do different work.

David
__________________
Metalshaping DVD. www.metalshapingzone.com
Metalshaping with hand tools on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGElSHzm0q8

All things are possible.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-10-2012, 01:30 AM
gerry miller's Avatar
gerry miller gerry miller is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: RockyFord,Colorado
Posts: 291
Default

Enjoying the heck out of this discussion. A lot of good points.
When Per and Anders were fixing that Ford I felt guilty because I had done some bodywork that looked as bad as they cut out in my lifetime.
Really hate to admit that...
__________________
Gerry Miller
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-10-2012, 04:30 AM
redoxide redoxide is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: North East Scotland
Posts: 477
Default

there has to be a degree of personal satisfaction in a job, If you can put it back to the customer knowing you have done yoiur absolute best then you can sleep at night. As an amature I try to learn all aspects of metalshaping and repair and make every effort to do a good job, I treat every job as a learning curve and spend far to long working out th best angle of attack and finnishing up. I do it from a learning standpoint, I put the extra effort in so I can achieve my goal of improving my skills.
I feel sorry for a few of the folks I have done work for ( I dont do a lot of work as I dont really have a lot of time, but when I do get a job I only take it on if the owner isnt in a hurry) It saddens me that some folks pride and joy are from my experiance pretty much sculpted from filler. anything from 1/4 inch average to 3/4 inch. usually there isnt really that much going on with the panel underneath. I was asked to fix the sill and door opening of an original AC ace a few months ago, the car looked original with good patina but the truth was, as I soon found out, that the dents and stuff was bad filler work aver an inch on top of the rear quarter at the door opening.... the poor thing was probably 3 times heavier than it should have been... You can only work to the original metal so the customer got his car back with a great repair that made the rest of the car look terrible... It seems to be "normal" and acceptable to bury classics in filler, it doesnt seem to affect the asking price, some folk with enough spare cash dont seem to care, its all down to the top coat, and trim, they are often oblivious to whats under the paint, unfortunately.
__________________
Ian
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-10-2012, 05:55 AM
keith keith is offline
MetalShaper of the Month November 2021
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Sedalia, Mo.
Posts: 349
Default

I like to use a file, I can't get the hang of sandpaper. I also like to use a bullseye pick.

As I have read this thread it appears many of us have our own thoughts and practices of to file or not to file. I like to read and see pictures of the end result and then I can make up my mind which way I want to proceed .

Why do these threads turn into a debate? I lose interest in them pretty quick when the debating starts.

Doing insurance work, working in a dealership, working in a restoration shop and metalshaping all have the same goal, do a quality job get it out the door and hopefully someone made some money. How you get it out the door has many options.

I'm off the soapbox now.
__________________
Keith Daleen
Sedalia,Mo.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-10-2012, 06:49 AM
John Buchtenkirch John Buchtenkirch is offline
MetalShaper of the Month October 2012
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Glen Cove, Long Island
Posts: 1,675
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Gardiner View Post
John I agree with what you say its pretty much how I work- one exception is I don't see the point in the adjustable file blade holders. ~ David
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Dave, on highly crowned compound curved panels (front half of the 33-34 Ford front fenders would be perfect example) I will make the file slightly concave to get more of the file’s teeth in contact with the panel, I find that it helps me cut the guide coating to a “true panel flow” for lack of a better term. On the back half of that 33-34 fender I would make the file slightly convex to file the reverse curve. As much as possible I try to file (and used to cut plastic) in diagonals or what some people call a cross hatch pattern.
>
I started in the business rebuilding VW bugs so it was on those fenders I learned how to file, hammer & dolly and even use a slapper file. I was too green to even realize it at the time but the bugs were a lucky choice to learn on, the metal was very malleable and the panels were such a high crown that oil canning wasn’t much of a problem. I had an old book “The principles of auto body repairing & repainting” that had a drawing of filing patterns on a fortyish sedan body, that was a big help in the beginning. I have a latter copy of the same book….. I had hoped to scan and post that drawing here but sadly they must have removed it because the car in the drawing was so dated. ~ John Buchtenkirch >
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-10-2012, 06:50 AM
RockHillWill RockHillWill is offline
MetalShaper of the Month Jan 2019
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,089
Default

Very interesting thread. I have to admit that I know NOTHING about this method. I have tried using a vixon file, but it seemed very course and I must not know how to use it correctly. I seem to leave a scarred up surface more often than not.

I generally use a 6" diameter dual action sander disc with 180 - 220 grit, often with the spray can of red primer or machinists die as a guidecoat. I make quick, wide spread passes to avoid 'thinning', and I seem to get what I currently view as acceptable results, but it seems to take a lot of time. I am thinking that the long time is due to my inexperience.

Would it be possible for some folks to display some various types of body 'files' ?
__________________
Will
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.