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  #41  
Old 09-04-2009, 12:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tdoty View Post
...Maybe I'm just thinking too much?...
I think we all are but it's more fun than talking about snakes in cars....
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  #42  
Old 09-04-2009, 01:57 PM
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snakes in cars ? know that does sound interesting

On a more serious note lets not get mad with each other as joe say's in his sig many roads take you to the same town , i think, yes it would be a shame if we lose the traditional names and terms but what is important is that we keep the craft alive and get new blood interested in panel beating/metal shaping whatever you want to call it.
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  #43  
Old 09-04-2009, 03:07 PM
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Chris, you are 100% correct. We need to keep the craft alive and get new people interested and teach them what we can. Thanks for your reply.
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  #44  
Old 09-04-2009, 08:05 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Bspoke View Post
snakes in cars ? know that does sound interesting

On a more serious note lets not get mad with each other as joe say's in his sig many roads take you to the same town , i think, yes it would be a shame if we lose the traditional names and terms but what is important is that we keep the craft alive and get new blood interested in panel beating/metal shaping whatever you want to call it.
Chris as far as I know no-one was mad with anyone, but perhaps I am wrong, thats the trouble with comunicating over the internet. If anyone thought I was mad thay were wrong and I dont think that Tim was either.
If people get mad over a discusion about metal shaping there is something wrong with them, you can get heated and have strong views and express them but to get mad or dislike someone you dont even know because they have a different veiw to you would be pathetic.

David

I have been teaching this stuff to new people for many years to try and keep the skills alive.
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  #45  
Old 09-04-2009, 08:05 PM
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I want to make sure I have these terms straight.

blocking

Creating a rough shape by working the metal into a hollow.

Hollowing

Working the inside of a panel from the outside edge towards the center.

Drawing

Is performed by placing a piece of sheet metal over a die cavity and then pushing the sheet into the opening with a punch.



Maybe we should start a new thread on the terms of sheet-metal shaping.

This has turned into a interesting thread.
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  #46  
Old 09-04-2009, 08:07 PM
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Your totally correct David.

It has been a interesting topic.
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  #47  
Old 09-04-2009, 08:11 PM
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I'm all ears over here, I've found this to be an interesting and educational discussion.

Ken
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  #48  
Old 09-04-2009, 08:58 PM
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I love a heated debate! Even when subjects get intertwined and somewhat confusing. Besides, it was my day off and I really had nothing better to do

John, drawing as a manufacturing process is indeed "performed by placing a piece of sheet metal over a die cavity and then pushing the sheet into the opening with a punch."

Drawing as a side effect (or even an intention, I guess) is pulling in metal from an area outside what is being worked.

Without firing up the debate again (unless we want to), I think I may have figured out a way to clarify my statement. I still say that stretch does not cause the tucks to form at the edge. However, most processes we use to stretch metal will also draw in material from other areas of the panel. That drawing in of material is what causes the tucks to form. In general use, it may not be at all practical to stretch without the drawing in to occur, but it is that drawing in of material, not the stretch, that causes the tucks to form.

On another note: The classic paper example was brought up. The problem with that theory, for a lot of metalshaping issues, is that cured paper does not have a plastic or elastic state - it doesn't stretch and it doesn't shrink. Steel and aluminum (as particular examples) DO posses plastic and elastic characteristics. In the die drawing example, the stretch and the shrink, to a very large extent, cancel each other out. The result is that, although shrinking and stretching have both taken place, the net surface area remains the same.

Once we got both subjects involved at the same time, and went back and forth between the two, references to drawing became interchangeable. That really was not the intent. Though there are some serious parallels between the drawing process and the "drawing effect", they are not exactly the same thing.

Now, my way of thinking may not work for everyone, but it helps me understand what is going on with the metal. I feel you have to understand what is happening in order to get the metal to do what you want...or what you think you want. At the end of the day, you really want to convince the metal that what it wants to do is the same as what you want it to do

Tim D.
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  #49  
Old 09-04-2009, 09:02 PM
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So is running sheet-metal through thumbnail dies,completely drawing no stretching?
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  #50  
Old 09-04-2009, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoty View Post
..... I still say that stretch does not cause the tucks to form at the edge. However, most processes we use to stretch metal will also draw in material from other areas of the panel. That drawing in of material is what causes the tucks to form. In general use, it may not be at all practical to stretch without the drawing in to occur, but it is that drawing in of material, not the stretch, that causes the tucks to form.....

Tim, can we compromise and say that the "increase in surface area causes tucks to form"? I can't really accept what you're saying as a way to explain it to novices although I don't really disagree. It's just too complicated to explain without having folks eyes glaze over and then hearing them fall off their chairs.

To praphrase an ex-president, "it depends on what the meaning of is, is."

Actually, the stretching event also draws the metal which creates the tucks so indirectly the stretch is creating the tucks...as the root cause of the tucks being formed that is. Right?

I also like a good debate. No hard feelings on my side.
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