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  #11  
Old 02-27-2019, 07:31 AM
Phil Minton Phil Minton is offline
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Bill, a really interesting article and worth a read. Thanks for posting it as I wouldn't have found it otherwise.

Will, I can relate to what you say about the younger generation. Their skill sets are amazing and far ahead of what I can do with modern technology. However it's nice to be able to teach a a few practical lessons as well. My son is a trained electrician and he is way beyond where I am with electrickery but since the passing of my Dad last year, he has been keen to work with me to drain me of any skills I have... (Hopefully I have some time to go!) This year we plan get round to one of the restoration projects waiting in the wings and I can't wait to get the metalworking tools out with him.

As for the sharing of information to commercial interests it's always a balance if it is critical to your business. I was told of a guy in Germany who specialises in rebuilding Messerschmitt engines in the garage of his town house. He was approached by Mercedes who had been commissioned to restore a BF 109 and had problems removing the engine cylinder liners. Through years of research and investment he had perfected the technique of replacing them. Mercedes asked him to share his knowledge which he refused to do but said he would do the job for them if they would pay him which in my view is only right.
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  #12  
Old 02-27-2019, 09:09 AM
Peter Tommasini Peter Tommasini is offline
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It might work with architectural work , it might still work for body panels as well ?
One never know where technology might one day come up with, and where it's going to finish up?
Peter

PS the first thing I would suggest they do is, ... to get the robot to hold and wheel the sheet horizontally parallel as much as possible, rather then hanging on one side, simply because if that was a door skin for example, once fitted to the frame it will create a hollow in the middle, and possibly other problems
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  #13  
Old 02-27-2019, 10:29 AM
billfunk29 billfunk29 is offline
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Default Automation

I have been lucky enough to work on many automation projects. Not easy. Invariably, in any automation project, the input materials become suspect. Sometimes material inspection creates more jobs than the robot saved. Master craftsman can "read" the material and make subtle compensations. Machines struggle with this. Better sensors help.


I agree with Peter, that architectural is more forgiving than automotive. Still, it will happen. Accurate laser measurement and artificial intelligence will allow the machine to learn from its' mistakes.
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  #14  
Old 03-01-2019, 02:35 AM
metal manny metal manny is offline
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Default Made without love

To the guys who might feel uneasy by the strides in technology - remember they've been stamping out steel bodied cars by the billion, since I can't remember when. In that respect the "age of the craftsman" is pretty well over and done with and this is just another mass-production solution using the techniques we would love to master. However, consider which vehicles command the real money as collectibles? - the ones that aren't mass produced or made without passion.

I seriously doubt that historic rebuilds will ever be undertaken by these methods, as it will prove to be either impractical or prohibitively expensive, but probably both.

Go figure, which owner of a restored Ferrari GTO would brag that a team of robots at XYZ Inc. conducted the perfect rebuild?
Value accrues purely because in its historical record, it was made with love!
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  #15  
Old 03-01-2019, 03:04 AM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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Yes. We get to the point where it is interesting to try something new and have it firmly in control. Trend of today's times. He forgets man and his uniqueness. Exceptional individuals are do poorly managed, and there are few this persons. The attempt to develop "universal matter" as a substitute for "individuality," always ends wrong. Exploring new things is the essence of liveliness. For all development, it is always necessary to use "common sense" and to include results in context.

There are many ways. Their description is important for the future. If anyone thinks he knows everything, he knows nothing.

Just a little philosophy. Sometimes, there is a lot of arrogance and power used in projects, and forgetfulness on in humility.
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  #16  
Old 03-01-2019, 03:30 AM
Peter Tommasini Peter Tommasini is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by metal manny View Post
To the guys who might feel uneasy by the strides in technology - remember they've been stamping out steel bodied cars by the billion, since I can't remember when. In that respect the "age of the craftsman" is pretty well over and done with and this is just another mass-production solution using the techniques we would love to master. However, consider which vehicles command the real money as collectibles? - the ones that aren't mass produced or made without passion.

I seriously doubt that historic rebuilds will ever be undertaken by these methods, as it will prove to be either impractical or prohibitively expensive, but probably both.

Go figure, which owner of a restored Ferrari GTO would brag that a team of robots at XYZ Inc. conducted the perfect rebuild?
Value accrues purely because in its historical record, it was made with love!


go figure, which owner of a restored Ferrari GTO would brag that a team of robots at XYZ Inc. conducted the perfect rebuild?
Value accrues purely because in its historical record, it was made with love


Manny ....You have got that right!!
I would also add..... passion, patient persistence and skill
Peter
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Metalshaping tools and dvds
www.handbuilt.net.au

Metalshaping clip on youtube
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEAh91hodPg

Making Monaro Quarter panel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIpOhz0uGRM
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  #17  
Old 03-01-2019, 05:32 AM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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I know 2 owners new Ferarri near my place . Both have antlers. (The woman fell in love with another, even a poor man) They still did not understand why. There is simply no love there.

I believe that if that were possibility the case, they would buy Ferrari from 3D printed at the for double the money.
Watch out for the debiles. The big difference between technique and love.

It does not belong here. Excuse me. But a little bit.
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  #18  
Old 03-01-2019, 06:56 AM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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I found an interesting link. From high school. There is described a laser bending and a variable tool for sheet metal pressing for ships. And other ideas.



https://www.vutbr.cz/www_base/zav_pr...?file_id=86321
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  #19  
Old 03-01-2019, 08:26 AM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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My argument about unintended consequences is not about romance. There are people who will pay more just to say they paid more. There are people who will go the "new" route simply to say they have the results of this new route. High end work still tends to stay within a small community of specialized full time craftsmen.

When you're one of those craftsmen (and such work is your family's primary income) losing one large job can make a huge difference in your ability to survive and provide. This is hard to manage.

The effective marketing approach- automation/mechanization of specialized work is promoted with images attention-grabbing projects, in this case things like exclusive cars and huge art/architectural projects. These $$$$ dream projects grab the attention of the public, especially among people who could never afford a real Ferrari and now think they could make one cheap(er) simply by metaphorically pushing a few buttons.

The reality is that this new technology will have a greater market impact, at least in the beginning, with smaller, less complicated works. That's the work that has always been easier to sell, so was considered "bread and butter work." Selling a $500-$2k job that can be done quickly is much easier than selling one 5x or 10x as expensive.

If you have an older car that needs a fender, front clip that is not reproduced but is on file or can easily be scanned, who will commission a man (and wait & afford the price) when a phone call and likely a lower price will get the same part delivered in a week or two? In reality, once that item is scanned and in file form, that specific part will always be more competitive that hand built parts. Romance is thinking that people will usually pay more for hand done work if they can get the same quality for less $$ and possibly even faster. That rarely happens.

As those files accrue, the new tech & method only gets more dominant while craftsmen and their knowledge dies a lonely death. Doing something as a hobby is not the same as being a full time, apprenticed expert.

In my stone career (since 2000), I've watched scanning and 3D printing largely replace the manual process of model work whether done by a professional draftsman, sculptor or similar person. I've also seen CNC mills devastate the simple bread & butter work market, by prepping jobs to be finished by hand in foreign markets to then be sent into this market at incontestable prices. USA stone can be bout here, shipped to China/India, manufactured/carved and then sent back to the USA to be sold for the same price as the identical raw stone that never left the USA.

Foreign or domestic, the machines still cannot outperform a qualified expert on results or even cost for high end work. But the market becomes severely eroded, especially when the small simple work disappears. sharing the secrets? It totally wrecks the future for anyone who seeks to do the work by hand. Scorched earth policy works fine as long as you're the one holding the match & gasoline.

Life is all about managing unintended consequences and the future cannot be stopped. This is simply my opinion, based upon my actual experience. Like I regularly say, it doesn't matter until it's your job. Then it's too late.

At that point, maybe you won't any work or money. but at least you'll still have romance......
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  #20  
Old 03-01-2019, 04:04 PM
Jaroslav Jaroslav is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cliffrod View Post
My argument about unintended consequences is not about romance. There are people who will pay more just to say they paid more. There are people who will go the "new" route simply to say they have the results of this new route. High end work still tends to stay within a small community of specialized full time craftsmen.

When you're one of those craftsmen (and such work is your family's primary income) losing one large job can make a huge difference in your ability to survive and provide. This is hard to manage.

The effective marketing approach- automation/mechanization of specialized work is promoted with images attention-grabbing projects, in this case things like exclusive cars and huge art/architectural projects. These $$$$ dream projects grab the attention of the public, especially among people who could never afford a real Ferrari and now think they could make one cheap(er) simply by metaphorically pushing a few buttons.

The reality is that this new technology will have a greater market impact, at least in the beginning, with smaller, less complicated works. That's the work that has always been easier to sell, so was considered "bread and butter work." Selling a $500-$2k job that can be done quickly is much easier than selling one 5x or 10x as expensive.

If you have an older car that needs a fender, front clip that is not reproduced but is on file or can easily be scanned, who will commission a man (and wait & afford the price) when a phone call and likely a lower price will get the same part delivered in a week or two? In reality, once that item is scanned and in file form, that specific part will always be more competitive that hand built parts. Romance is thinking that people will usually pay more for hand done work if they can get the same quality for less $$ and possibly even faster. That rarely happens.

As those files accrue, the new tech & method only gets more dominant while craftsmen and their knowledge dies a lonely death. Doing something as a hobby is not the same as being a full time, apprenticed expert.

In my stone career (since 2000), I've watched scanning and 3D printing largely replace the manual process of model work whether done by a professional draftsman, sculptor or similar person. I've also seen CNC mills devastate the simple bread & butter work market, by prepping jobs to be finished by hand in foreign markets to then be sent into this market at incontestable prices. USA stone can be bout here, shipped to China/India, manufactured/carved and then sent back to the USA to be sold for the same price as the identical raw stone that never left the USA.

Foreign or domestic, the machines still cannot outperform a qualified expert on results or even cost for high end work. But the market becomes severely eroded, especially when the small simple work disappears. sharing the secrets? It totally wrecks the future for anyone who seeks to do the work by hand. Scorched earth policy works fine as long as you're the one holding the match & gasoline.

Life is all about managing unintended consequences and the future cannot be stopped. This is simply my opinion, based upon my actual experience. Like I regularly say, it doesn't matter until it's your job. Then it's too late.

At that point, maybe you won't any work or money. but at least you'll still have romance......
It's like the invention of the fridge. All the companies that mined the ice in winter ended up.

Shaping plates is a certain mental disability. You will not be rich, your hands will hurt, your back, you will have dust on the lungs, but it's fun. When you do a good result you are happy. Your joy is greater than the joy of a banker who has just robbed the whole city ..... and he just has no idea what to buy for his joy.

An economy is not why you do it. If that happens, it's a win. I just came back from an 84-year-old mister of metallshaper who explained some of his procedures. Still working, slowly and use elementary logic.

He has his old wooden block, a simple EW and a small space. He was delighted to show him his procedures and machines. He was delighted that it was different - better.

We can enjoy the robots. They will not do everything. We have room for well-paid specialties.

Turn off your cell phone and meditate in metal.
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