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  #41  
Old 02-11-2011, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyce View Post
Just remember Scott the anvil only touches the center of the upper wheel, so if the pitts are far enough to the sides it won't mark the panel.
Yep! Unless I'm using a flat anvil... But yes, this is true, and unfortunately there are some pits right in the middle! Not too terrible. I could probably get away with very few marks on the panel, but I'm juggling a few other tasks before I get too serious about this panel, so I may as well refinish the wheel correctly and be done with it.

So much to do, so little time...
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  #42  
Old 02-11-2011, 04:56 PM
Michael Michael is offline
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Scott, I don't know If this will help. I have a bench model hf wheel with full radius anvils. Light pressure and a lot of passes are required to prevent terriable tracking. I have used a better bigger wheel with flat anvils and you can still get bad, terriable, track marks with too much pressure, they just look flat instead of groves. I hope Kerry will explain better.

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  #43  
Old 05-16-2011, 10:59 AM
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Okay, been a long while since I've posted on this thread. Been working on other stuff. BUT! I finally got time to get focused on this project!

FIRST! Anvils are cleaned up and lookin' good! Had to do a fresh cut on the upper wheel, but it looks fantastic. The others anvils took a lot of work and still aren't as nice as I would like them, but they are MORE than acceptable. My little lathe has proved helpful already!

I also fixed the drop assembly so it would stay put, but found that I have some tension issues with the kick wheel.

But now the juicy stuff.

Made a new buck to follow...



Then rolled a 1/3 scale panel using the advice given earlier in this thread and seemed to be on the right track, so I went ahead and pulled out a full sheet and got to wheeling...

...OOFA! Let's just say aluminum potato chips are not my favorite.

I didn't have a problem getting a gentle crown to the panel, but getting the rear to behave the way I wanted caused a TON of problems and I ended up going to far. On top of that, I figured out too late I was having kick wheel problems and had a lot of inconsistencies over the panel. Not good. Was able to fix most of the unevenness, but killed it trying to get the crown in the rear.

D'OH! Live and learn...



SO! I cut it into three 16" pieces and will be making it out of three pieces. I wheeled the front most two panels all over again from scratch and they came out perfect in very little time. THEN! I started in on the rear portion and again just could NOT get it right. I think I have a HUGE work hardening issue as well. I never annealed the panel because it didn't seem to have a lot of crown, but I think I was wrong. Now I have 16" x 48" aluminum FRITO! HAHA! When I put is over the buck it seem to be close, but still a long ways off.

The underside of the panel will have a structure to hold it all together and rigid, but I'm not sure how much to depend on that structure. Of course it would be ideal for it to hold it's shape on it's own, but maybe I will have to depend on that structure a bit.

I have books, videos, all kinds of stuff, but only experience is going to get me the skills I need to get the technique right for this portion of the panel.

Thoughts?
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  #44  
Old 05-16-2011, 02:07 PM
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Over lunch I sat and watched part of Fournier's "blocking and smoothing" video to refresh my memory on how he handled a low crown. He used a leather wrapped slapper and took the panel to the bag, and then wheeled out the hammer marks with virtually no pressure. Originally I was thinking that this panel doesn't have that much crown and that maybe it would be the wrong technique, but after watching it again, it seems I may be in the same boat. His example panel seemed to have very similar shape. I may anneal some material and give it a whirl.
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  #45  
Old 05-16-2011, 05:00 PM
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Scott, it looks as though that panel has a bit more crown to it than you might have originally thought.

The good thing about metal is that it is dumb and will do what you tell it to. An aluminum Frito can be saved by working the opposite areas of the metal.

Some light shrinking around around the edges can help tighten things up a bit; as Jon Glover says, the edges can get a bit wild when wheeling. Light nips along the edge can go a long way.

You can try annealing the aluminum, but I don't think you're going to run into huge issues if you don't. Part of the problem with annealing aluminum is that the metal stays soft if it isn't sufficiently worked after annealing - which usually isn't a problem with really high-crown stuff.

That's about all I can think of for now......time for me to go to work!
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  #46  
Old 05-16-2011, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdoty View Post
Scott, it looks as though that panel has a bit more crown to it than you might have originally thought.

The good thing about metal is that it is dumb and will do what you tell it to. An aluminum Frito can be saved by working the opposite areas of the metal.

Some light shrinking around around the edges can help tighten things up a bit; as Jon Glover says, the edges can get a bit wild when wheeling. Light nips along the edge can go a long way.

You can try annealing the aluminum, but I don't think you're going to run into huge issues if you don't. Part of the problem with annealing aluminum is that the metal stays soft if it isn't sufficiently worked after annealing - which usually isn't a problem with really high-crown stuff.

That's about all I can think of for now......time for me to go to work!
Thanks man! I appreciate the input! And long time no chat!! Hope you are well and makin' cool stuff!

I was trying to avoid the shrinking around the edges, but since the panel is probably scrap metal unless I try it, it certainly couldn't help busting out the shrinker.

Just in case, I ordered a medium soft face slapper. Will have it tomorrow. Needed one anyway, so what better time than now to have it on-hand.
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  #47  
Old 05-16-2011, 06:14 PM
TheRodDoc TheRodDoc is offline
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You need to wheel more passes where there is more compound curve needed. Your roof has much more shape to it then you are thinking. Even 3/4" of raise from the outer edges to the center takes a fair amount of stretching on a sheet of that size.

(Important)
The direction you wheel makes no difference at all. The direction you roll has no bearing on the shape being formed. So if your sheet isn't turning out like expected, it's not from the direction you were rolling.

Next thing is the tracking. It needs to be fairly accurate. Each single pass is really two. If you miss a spot you have missed one or two passes depending how far off you were from the last track. And depending on wheel pressure it makes waves in your sheet.

I drew you an example of the passes it might need for a roof. More or less of them.

1st pass toward rear where the most compound curve is needed.
Then a second pass over that one but extending the area further ahead.
Maybe a third pass starting over the 1st pass again but extending even further ahead and etc. as needed.

Also I show how the tracking should look. Showing how the wheels make a double pass in each pass.

Then an example of staggering the end of maybe a 1st pass that will need another over it. And on any pass that gets another over it.

I still have to type with 1 finger after my stroke and it's slow so I hope this is enough to help.

wheelroof.jpg
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  #48  
Old 05-16-2011, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRodDoc View Post
You need to wheel more passes where there is more compound curve needed. Your roof has much more shape to it then you are thinking. Even 3/4" of raise from the outer edges to the center takes a fair amount of stretching on a sheet of that size.

(Important)
The direction you wheel makes no difference at all. The direction you roll has no bearing on the shape being formed. So if your sheet isn't turning out like expected, it's not from the direction you were rolling.

Next thing is the tracking. It needs to be fairly accurate. Each single pass is really two. If you miss a spot you have missed one or two passes depending how far off you were from the last track. And depending on wheel pressure it makes waves in your sheet.

I drew you an example of the passes it might need for a roof. More or less of them.

1st pass toward rear where the most compound curve is needed.
Then a second pass over that one but extending the area further ahead.
Maybe a third pass starting over the 1st pass again but extending even further ahead and etc. as needed.

Also I show how the tracking should look. Showing how the wheels make a double pass in each pass.

Then an example of staggering the end of maybe a 1st pass that will need another over it. And on any pass that gets another over it.

I still have to type with 1 finger after my stroke and it's slow so I hope this is enough to help.

Attachment 10539
Thanks for your reply, Richard! That makes sense! I think my frame of mind, as far as direction is concerned, was off. I was really focused on direction of wheeling vs. what shape I would get from wheeling that direction and WHICH direction the shape would happen... Errr... I think I said that right?

I think I need to go back and work more of the edges to try and undo some of my "frito" potato chip that I have formed... Maybe I can salvage one of these pieces. Errrr...
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  #49  
Old 05-17-2011, 02:29 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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Scott, wheeling is not easy and you have chosen a difficult shape to wheel. Having such a marked difference in crown from one part of the panel to the other is hard to achieve. The other people who have commented are right there is a lot of shape in that panel. If when you hold the panel on the buck one part is in contact (IE the middle) then this area needs more shape or in other words more wheeling. I dont fully agree with the rod doc about direction of wheeling not mattering, you will find it better not to wheel so that your tracking crosses at 90 degrees. I know that this is what some people say you should do but it is better not to because it is often difficult to get the marks out. It is better to diamond wheel so that you can control the way the panel shapes in any given area.

If that is a large panel you may need two people to wheel or you will never stop getting marks in it. It takes years to learn to wheel so don't get frustrated.

I just took another look at the photo you put up of the panel, it looks like you have hardly done one pass over the panel. ( I could be wrong but the tracking marks indicate this to me) I see you went at 90 degrees across the panel as well. To put that much shape in a panel and not end up with wheel lines it may take dozens of passes over the whole panel and many hours of work.

David
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Last edited by David Gardiner; 05-17-2011 at 02:36 PM.
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  #50  
Old 05-17-2011, 02:42 PM
David Gardiner David Gardiner is offline
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You should not need to anneal the ally to wheel it. What aluminium are you using?. it is best to work in half hard. I use commercially pure because that is what was used on the old cars and I often have to joint to it. (I think this is 1100 series in the US. Its 1050aH4 here or S1BH4.

David
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