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Old 03-23-2010, 08:21 PM
Tuck Tuck is offline
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Default English Wheel Rollers.....

A good friend of mine once asked about English Wheel rollers, how they work, what are the differences, and how would you go about choosing them for your personal use. I wrote this up as a response. I just found it in my archives, and though it might be worth posting here. This is not meant to start a huge factional war about the pros and cons of any ones preferences; it is just intended to be for basic information.

Upper wheels are usually flat, so as far as the sheet metal is concerned, size doesn't matter. The diameter is more of a personal thing. The larger wheels (8's or 9's) usually have more heft to them, and therefore more inertia, and therefore more ability to roll over the walnuts with less effort from you. The downside with more inertia, is that you have to stop it, and restart it each time you change direction. Therefore some folks like lighter wheels. That’s why you see the Hoosiers all cut out with open spokes. They try to lighten them up. Big solid uppers will tire a person out really fast. Just use Randy’s Big Wheel sometime. I believe it has a 12" solid steel upper. Now, as far as the width goes, the sheet metal only cares about the width of the contact flat on the lower anvil. You could do just as much work with 6" crown upper, and 6" crown lower, but, you would have a bunch of ridge marks because it would be impossible to keep the steel sheet perfectly perpendicular between the wheels. That is why the top is flat, and usually as wide as the lower wheel. Gives the support to the sheet steel that keeps is perpendicular, so little if no marking. Now, why use a really wide upper like my 4"x9", when using a narrower lower anvil. When a person is working a large panel, and is working alone, the 4" width gives extra stability to the panel, to keep it perpendicular. Two people could do just as good a job on a 2" upper, that one person can do on a 4". I hope that makes sense. Also, the bigger the diameter of the upper, closes the angle between the upper and lower, and makes it easier to push the sheet through. Imagine how hard it would be to push walnuts through a 2" upper, and a 2" lower. The input angle would be 70 - 80 degrees. Then picture a 12" upper and a 12" lower, and the angle would really be small, and easier to work. Keep in mind also, that large wide wheels don't give you as much visibility as say a 2" wide upper, with 2x3 lowers. So visibility comes into play when choosing your rollers.

Now lower anvils. I've never seen a lower anvil that was wider than it's diameter, but often times it is narrower than its diameter. Keeping in mind that the only part of the anvil that is doing any work is the contact flat, the rest of the wheel is there simply for clearance of the panel. You don't want any part of the anvil to touch the work except for the contact flat. You also want to work with the widest contact flat that you can, for the given panel clearance. So the rule of thumb is use the lower anvil radius that is nearest to, but just a little more round than the section you are wheeling. The reason for this is you could use a 3" radius anvil to wheel a virtual flat sheet, but with the contact flat being so narrow on the 3" radius anvil, it would take 10 times longer, and it would be harder to get a good finish. It's always better to use the widest contact flat that you can. A Hoosier 12" radius lower has a 1/2" contact flat, where the 3" radius is less than 1/8" if my memory serves me right. By the way, there is, and always will be contention over true radius verses contact flat anvils. I'm firmly in the contact flat group, and I've used both. There are no rules, so it's personal preference.

Now, what size do you want to use. You have to ask yourself what you're going to be doing with them. Motorcycle fenders, tanks, headlight bezels, anything small, confined, lots of curves - go with the narrower smaller radius anvils, because you will need the clearance. Most M/C guys will use a 2x2 lower with a 2x6 to 2x8 upper. If you are an auto patch panel guy, doing medium to shallow curves, and stuff like that, the 2x3 or 3x3 lowers with a 3x7 or 3x8 upper. Like I said above, if you work alone on larger panels, the 4x upper comes in handy. Each job calls for something specific, for that task. What I tell folks that are starting out with their first wheel, is, if you lean towards M/C stuff, start with a 2x3 lower set, and a 2x8 upper. Car guys can go with 3x3 lower set, with a 3x8 upper. If you’re in the middle, try a 2x3 lower set, with a 3x8 upper.

Hardened vs. soft. All uppers should be of hardened forged steel. You mentioned the Trick Concepts wheels, and I noticed that they offered both the cast and forged. The extra for the forged is worth it because the finish on a forged wheels can be mirror smooth, and a cast wheel will just never be that good. And always remember, the finish on a panel is only as good as the finish on the wheels that made it. Every pockmark or scratch on a wheel imprints itself into the panel every time it rolls over it. So, uppers are hardened, and usually lowers are soft. But you must be careful with the soft rollers because rolling over a laser cut edge, or a proud weld bead, will mare them. That's why I always recommend that folks dress the edges of their panels, and never roll over welds. If you want to wheel out welds, you need hardened lower anvils. Why I don't recommend hardened lowers for general use is that with the soft anvils, if you do ding one, you can usually sand and polish it out OK. Can't do it with a hardened anvil. Would have to be sent back to a CNC machine like Hoosiers, who can re-cut it with a ceramic bit. Anyhow, I recommend soft lowers, with a hardened upper.


A far as wheel style, I strongly recommend you clone one of Imperial Wheeling Machines "C" frame wheels. IMHO, they have the best performance for cost of building them, of any of the styles.

Tuck
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Last edited by Tuck; 03-23-2010 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 03-23-2010, 08:46 PM
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tdoty tdoty is offline
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Very good information Tuck! However, the part about upper wheels is a bit confusing and misleading.

Randy's upper is made from capped tube, not solid. It doesn't tire me out any more than any other wheel and inertia is not a problem - not one single person has yet been sucked into the wheel and spit out as a ribbon of taffy (inside joke, ya had to be there).

Larger diameter wheels work smoother because of the approach angle, as you mentioned. Pics I've seen of Marcel's wheel show the upper and lower to be about equal (if not equal) in diameter. There is an amazing difference between a 6" upper and an 8" upper with 3" anvils, much less "lumpy" feeling. Isay go with at least an 8" upper and whatever anvils you can get....as long as they're 3" diameter Hoosiers

I was watching a YouTube video last night by Lazze and it looks like the wheel in the video is actually equipped with an anvil that is wider than its diameter. Personally, I like using an anvil that is narrower than its diameter...too bad I can afford anvils that are 4" wide and 6" diameter along with a 14x8 upper.

Even though I only use 2" wide rollers, visibility isn't much of an issue for - I'm kinda short. An Imperial 26F is about the right height for me...maybe a little low. The sternum-level working height that is considered the norm is too low for me due to a neck injury that makes it painful to look down for long periods of time (I can look up for most of the day though). Anyway, I don't have to move too far to see the contact patch doing its thing, if needed.

Cast uppers have a long history in metalshaping and will work fine. Like written above though, the surface finish isn't as good and your panel takes on the finish of your upper wheel. That said, it has been pointed out that the full-polish often applied to our tools is as much showing off as anything else. Why? Does it matter that your panels look like they've been dipped in chrome when the painter "roughs it up a bit" with a 36 grit disc? For me, a red Scotchbrite finish works for most of my tools.

The laser cut edge that Tuck mentioned will do damage to more than cast uppers! Some uppers made from soft 4140 or even 4140 prehard will get damaged by a rogue edge! Beware of sand too, since it will leave marks even in a HARD 4140 upper! Keep things clean and your wheels will return the favor with nice, clean panels

Just my points and couterpoints to go with the great information Tuck posted....

Tim D.
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Old 03-23-2010, 10:39 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Tuck, good description of some of the nuances of wheels

I think e-wheels are a lot like golf clubs.... everyone has their own preference. It's all about finding something 'you' are comfortable with. The club/wheel with the biggest sweet spot, smallest sweet spot, most mass, least mass, etc. can get your ball/panel into the water hazard/scrap pile just as easily as any other wheel/club.

That being said, given the crappiest old clubs, Tiger Woods would still kick my butt. There is a lot to be said for practice and skill.
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Old 03-24-2010, 09:23 AM
cwilliamrose cwilliamrose is offline
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Thanks Tuck,

Nice post.

Sean, I think it's more getting comfortable with what you have and that becomes "normal". I have no experience with Ewheels except mine. I have seen only one other one -- ever. If I were to use one of Kerry's, it would feel different but maybe not "better" because I have been using mine for so long. When I built mine it wasn't like I could go try a bunch of them and choose the features I liked the best. There were no others in the area and the ones offered for sale were special order from England.

Speaking of the other one I saw -- The guy was building aircraft parts. He would run over tack welds to flatten and stretch them while they were still hot. And he didn't have or didn't use a quick release, he'd just yank the part out (clang!!) and shove it back in from an edge. I didn't think all that clanging would be good for the surface of the wheels but that's what he did. His machine was shop-made and probably fairly flexible, even compared to mine.

If my wheels clang together it was very much unintentional.

Tim, you are correct, dirty wheels are not a good thing. I'm having to dress out some tiny divots in my guitar panels because my upper got dirt on it. I have a nice repeating pattern of marks. It didn't hurt the wheel but it did effect the panel (aluminum). I heard the dirt while I was wheeling but didn't jump on cleaning the wheels. Lesson learned -- clean the panel and the wheels often.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:18 AM
bobadame bobadame is offline
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Someone, somewhere posted a picture of a felt wiper that was mounted above the top wheel. That might solve part of the problem.
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Old 03-24-2010, 11:25 AM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Lazze stores a piece of scotchbrite in the yoke so it wipes on the upper as it moves.

The problem with frames is that as you load them, they become a spring and if you roll the metal out of the rollers the spring releases and you get a BANG. That is one disadvantage I've noticed on my GHIA wheel. The frame by itself didn't move but once I put the Belleview washers in the adjuster train it will bang the rollers together unless I use the quick release if I'm using fairly heavy pressure. Just something to learn.

You WILL learn to use what you have. If you never use a better or different machine you'll never become dissatisfied with what you have.

Great explanation Tuck. I agree 100%. Definitely can tell a difference with larger rollers as far as smoothness goes. Even going from 3" diameter to 3 1/2 makes a noticeable difference.
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Old 03-24-2010, 03:19 PM
cwilliamrose cwilliamrose is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
Lazze stores a piece of scotchbrite in the yoke so it wipes on the upper as it moves.
Good idea, worth a try. Could work on the lowers too

Quote:
You WILL learn to use what you have. If you never use a better or different machine you'll never become dissatisfied with what you have.
So what you're saying is that going to a meet could get very expensive. Maybe I'll just stay in my cave.....
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Old 03-24-2010, 05:04 PM
Tuck Tuck is offline
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Well Bill, it did for me. Since my first International Metalmeet, I have build eight machines strictly for metalshaping. And numerous stands and fixtures, as well as many hand tools. It's an addiction. Nobody is immune.

Tuck
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Old 03-24-2010, 08:48 PM
cwilliamrose cwilliamrose is offline
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And I thought I took the cure 25 years ago when I built my Ewheel. Now I want to build a reciprocating machine, maybe double-ended with thumbnail dies set up on one end. Do I need such a machine? Nope. Do I have time for a major build. Nope again. I still want to do it and I have use of a machine shop with lots of floor space. I have no business going to a meet, good thing there aren't any scheduled in this area.....
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