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  #1  
Old 08-14-2019, 07:28 PM
fred26t fred26t is offline
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Default Kerry was right on about Wray

I have followed Wray for about 3 years. LOTS of really good info. His present series on building a Jag front end is great! Metal Fabrication: Jaguar E-Type Aluminum Bonnet Build (Part 4) has tons of info. I would start with part 1-2-3 then do 4. 4 is over an hour, most on the wheel (using, cleaning, polishing is great) Really good stuff. I have been using my wheel for 10 years and learned a lot. Fred26T
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Old 08-15-2019, 05:48 AM
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i'm sorry i have to disagree, he went to a lot of effort for nothing and that flexible shape pattern fitted even when the panel looked like a barrel. not for me sorry
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:35 AM
sru_tx sru_tx is offline
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neilb, I understand your questioning the point of the flexible pattern if it fits the metal even when it doesn't even resemble the final piece. I'm sure there a many approaches to come up with the final piece. I'm a relative novice to metalshaping but i've drank the Koolaid. I've used Wray's method and it works.

I believe Wray's point is that there are two factors that drive a piece's final shape, area and arrangement. Area denotes stretching and shrinking of local areas relative to the overall piece. The flex pattern preserves that information. Arrangement denotes the primitive form underlying in the piece, e.g. cylindrical, flat, etc. and it's orientation. The templates preserve the arrangement information and he made those in a previous episode.

The beauty in decoupling the concepts is that you can use a temporary arrangement that facilitates the use of whatever tool is being used.Furthermore, you can work on the gross development via shrinks and stretches without having to constantly reset the arrangement to a buck AND without trying to develop the piece in its final shape. In this video the curled shape was much more efficient for the wheel than working with it in the final shape.

I've seen this approached used many times in making motorcycle fenders. They look nothing like a fender until the piece is uncurled (arrangement).
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:02 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Originally Posted by neilb View Post
i'm sorry i have to disagree, he went to a lot of effort for nothing and that flexible shape pattern fitted even when the panel looked like a barrel. not for me sorry
There are a thousand ways to shape metal. Wray's is one, Peters is one, Kent's is one, xyz;s is one. Whatever works for you.

The nice thing about flexible shape patterns, and I'm a believer, is that when the FSP fits correctly, it WILL go into proper arrangement. IT WILL! That allows you to work panels out of arrangement for better access and using flatter anvils. Trust me, it works. But it's just another way. One of many and if it doesn't speak to you, then do what does.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:42 PM
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I pulled a flexible shape pattern off the nose of one of my ASA's. I shaped the panels to match the FSP. To my surprise, I duplicated a dent that was in the front roll pan where I didn't see it. Works for me.

I decided to show the technique to a friend of mine as he was working on his Dual Ghia. I pulled a FSP off of an area on the rear fender over the top and down the side. After all of the effort, I said "hey Bill check this out" and threw it on the floor. It was dead flat. The panel could have been formed over my knee. A bit of a let down but it gave me the information that told me where to shape, Nowhere. Just put it into arrangement over my knee.

The best defense (really doesn't need a defense, it just works) was the events leading up to FormFest I in Hunstville, AL. FSP's were sent to metalshapers all over the planet. What they received was a pattern for a certain panel of a Sports Car prototype. The panels were made in their own shops to fit the FSP and at the appropriate time, they gathered at George King's shop in Huntsville with their shaped panel.

The panels were put into arrangement to fit the buck and welded together. BINGO! A complete body in a week or less. That was amazing! That event was a gamechanger for metalshaping. From that came FormFest II, MetalShapers Association, MetalMeet, AllMetalShaping and many metalshapers gatherings all over the planet. So yes, the lowly flexible shape pattern has a legacy..


As a postscript to this, I neglected to mention all of the friends that I have made over the years as a result of these interactions. I can put faces and voices and laughter to many of the characters on this site and others. Yes. there are "Characters". FUN, FUN, FUN! Good times and memories that will last a lifetime.
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Old 08-15-2019, 04:16 PM
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I'm happy you guys all love him, great it's nice to see. like I said it's not for me.

I would rather make the panel with the least amount of effort, rather than making a barrel then stretching the edges out to loose the shape that was just put in. seems counter intuitive to me.

happy shaping
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Kerry Pinkerton View Post
There are a thousand ways to shape metal. Wray's is one, Peters is one, Kent's is one, xyz;s is one. Whatever works for you.

The nice thing about flexible shape patterns, and I'm a believer, is that when the FSP fits correctly, it WILL go into proper arrangement. IT WILL!
that's kind of obvious, if it fits the panel you make it on, it will fit a panel made the same shape. kind of goes without saying.

what the flexible shape pattern doesn't tell you is where is stretched and what is shrunk. it just shows you shape. another thing i find odd is that wray puts the FSP on the piece being made and say's it has a low in a certain spot. take the paper away and look at the panel in the light, it's easier to see? if the panel is not the correct shape the FSP won't fit correct either agreed?

it just seems a simpler way to start with a flat paper and put the details in on the paper. open the paper up cut the material (which is flat) mark the details on it and go from there.

but what works for you is fine
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Old 08-16-2019, 07:23 AM
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that's kind of obvious, if it fits the panel you make it on, it will fit a panel made the same shape. kind of goes without saying. what the flexible shape pattern doesn't tell you is where is stretched and what is shrunk. it just shows you shape.
I disagree (respectfully). Especially if you're shaping out of arrangement. About 15 years ago, I was at an event and Grant Gleeser had his Model T coupe body there. There were several teams working on different panels. I chose that nasty double reverse at the junction of the rear quarter, rear roof, and the top of the decklid....a classic saddle shape. I pulled an FSP. When I laid the FSP on the panel it showed me big loose areas in several places. The FSP tells you EXACTLY where to shape (which one of the major benefits imo...especially for less skilled shapers) If the FSP is loose you need to stretch. If it's tight you need to shrink. Most panels are basically bowl shapes which are made mostly by shrinking the edges and stretching in the center. Obviously, they can be made by all shrink or all stretch if a shaper has the skills and tools to do so and that is how they want the metal thickness to end up in the panel.

Anyway, I started on that panel out of arrangement so I could wheel it. The further I got, the less it looked like what I was trying to make and Mark Denny (SugarmommaChoppers) kept telling me. Finally, the pattern was tight all over and I said "We're done." Mark replied, "Kerry, I just ain't seeing it.". I'll never forget this part. I looked at him and gave a strong twist to the panel over my knee. It went POP and there is was. And it was perfect. In that moment Mark's jaw literally dropped and I said, "When the FSP fits the panel it WILL go into arrangement. If it doesn't, it may not".

Quote:
Originally Posted by neilb View Post
...another thing i find odd is that wray puts the FSP on the piece being made and say's it has a low in a certain spot. take the paper away and look at the panel in the light, it's easier to see? if the panel is not the correct shape the FSP won't fit correct either agreed?

it just seems a simpler way to start with a flat paper and put the details in on the paper. open the paper up cut the material (which is flat) mark the details on it and go from there.

but what works for you is fine
I hear what you're saying but that is an experience thing don't you think? I spend time with master shapers like Cass Nawrocki, Wray Schelin, Peter Tommasini, Per Lovgren, etc and they can just SEE the shape and know what needs to be done. It's FM to me (Freaking Magic ). It's the same way that body guys can FEEL high and low spots that I can't even see or feel.

I can use a 'paper doll' as Kent White calls them but it took me years to get the skills where they would 'speak' to me. FSP's pretty much spoke to me at the beginning and I've seen many beginners pick on shaping very quick because the FSP was telling them what to do.

There is another benefit of FSPs that just isn't possible (to my knowledge anyway). How many of the cars you work on have one good side and one bad? Almost all of them right? If you take the FSP off the good side, or off a good panel from someone else's car., you can TURN IT INSIDE OUT and you've got the FSP for the other side.

What they CAN'T do is tell you the arrangement but neither do paper patters. I have spent hundreds and hundreds of hours on my roadster because I did not have a hard buck to work against. Although I had the panels shaped to mirror images of the left side (which was the first side completed) by making FSPs and turning them inside out. Without a hard buck, I could not get them in proper arrangement relative to each other. Once I welded them together, it became impossible to change the arrangement because the shape was 'trapped'. This really, really bit me in the butt.

Again, if you learned a different way and it works for you, that is all that matters. It's like the contact flat, true radius holy war. Or the Ewheel vs Power Hammer war. Or (OMG) gas vs TIG! We've all seen wonderful work done with the 'other' side. It doesn't mean anyone is wrong or anyone is right because there isn't a right way or wrong way. There are just ways and everyone has ways that works for them better than others. Some guys sing Bass. Some guys sing Tenor.
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Old 08-16-2019, 12:50 PM
Rick Mullin Rick Mullin is offline
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I use both systems. I was taught using a paper pattern and it suited me fine for many years. For me, the paper is faster, less cost of materials and it provides more specific information (where to shrink or stretch and how deeply). The flexible shape pattern is at times, less cumbersome and if placed on the flat surface like the floor, you can see exactly where the shape is. The beauty of that is, dependent upon the tools at hand, you can decide what to stretch or shrink. The biggest short fall of the FSP for me is that it does not give an accurate layout of the blank to be cut. Once the shape is in the panel, the pattern shows an accurate trim line. This can mean some initial layout guess work and possible extra energy shrinking or stretching unused wasted material. Manipulation of the panel is always required even during the shaping process to achieve the best use of wheel or hammer die radius. I never try to shape something to the final form or configuration so neither pattern system would change that.
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Old 08-16-2019, 02:17 PM
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Rick, I do a couple things that, for me help with FSPs


1- I always punch 3 asymmetrical holes in the FSP and mark through the holes to the panel. The marks will move as you put shape in the panel but I just redo the marks as that happens. I trim the panel to size a little as I go so I don't have a lot of excess.


2- If I'm working from a slick (read that non-dirty or rusty) surface...paint or bare metal, instead of transfer tape, I prefer to use Glad Press-N-Seal. It is very fast, and very thin so you can just let it overlap. When you put the fiberglas strapping tape down, it results in a very soft pattern without the sticky tape residue. Try it.
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