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Old 12-18-2011, 11:37 PM
ByronR ByronR is offline
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Default Great Overview of tools and techniques

While I am no more than a novice when it comes to metal shaping, I have amassed a pretty fair collection of books on this subject in the hope that the more I read the better I’ll get. I’ve collected everything from Robert Sargent, to Cass Nawrocki, Ron and Sue Fournier to Eddie Paul and Timothy Remus, as well as a number of other out of print publications. They are all very good, but today I bought what I consider to be the best single reference I have ever read. The book (soft cover) is Automotive Sheet Metal Forming & Fabrication by Matt Joseph. See http://www.amazon.com/Automotive-She...4266687&sr=1-4 and read the reviews posted. They say it as well as I can. Among the most notable features is the quality of the photos. Unlike many books of this genre, they are excellent.

This book I feel will appeal to the beginner and at the same time be informative to the seasoned metal shaper. Much of the narrative will be a bit controversial (as are most subjects relating to metal shaping). Right off I noticed he categorizes the Pullmax, Eckold Kraftformer and Piccolo as power hammers. He maintains that TIG is the preferred method of welding sheet metal, dismissing Oxy-Acetylene as creating “all kinds of distortion issues” and finds aluminum torch welding to be “closer to brazing than welding.” I’m sure there are any number of other such issues that members of this site might argue with, but this book needs to be looked at if you love this subject. If nothing else, the beginner will get a good look at many tools and techniques referenced at this site but often not shown. I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to suggest that this book is to publications, what David Gardiner’s DVD is to Video.

Retraction: I don’t think it’s an exaggeration to suggest that this book is to publications, what David Gardiner’s DVD is to Video. I think this statement is something of an exaggeration. This is not a "how to" as much as it is, as I have described on another site, a "this is what their talking about" exposition. I still think it's a great book, though.
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Last edited by ByronR; 12-21-2011 at 02:38 AM. Reason: Second thought's
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Old 12-19-2011, 05:12 AM
Kevinsrodshop Kevinsrodshop is offline
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Thanks! I ordered one. Looks like a good resource.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:24 AM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ByronR View Post
... I noticed he categorizes the Pullmax, Eckold Kraftformer and Piccolo as power hammers....
It's unfortunate that he wrote a book and did not bother to either educate himself (and others) or understand the rather significant difference between reciprocating machines and power hammers. Try tipping a flange, shearing metal, doing a bead, etc, on a power hammer. This alone does not make me want to run out and order the book.
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Old 12-20-2011, 10:42 AM
bobadame bobadame is offline
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It seems to me that whether sprung or unsprung, both types of machines reciprocate. I don't think you can simply claim the term for an unsprung machine while excluding other hammers that also reciprocate. I understand the difference between the types of machines that store energy in a spring and those that don't but they both most certainly reciprocate. If you want to differentiate between the types of mechanical hammers, maybe they should be grouped as spring hammers or rigid hammers, or something else that actually defines the real difference between the types. I need coffee.
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Old 12-20-2011, 01:03 PM
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My objection is the use of "HAMMERS" to refer to machines that are not hammers and do not have an overstroke, that is, reciprocating machines like, Pullmax, Trumph, Anoka, Eckolds, group design thumbnail machines, ect.

Yes, they all have a reciprocating motion, but lumping them together like that is like saying that since all body hammers have handles, any one is as good as another for any purpose.
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Old 12-20-2011, 03:10 PM
bobadame bobadame is offline
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There are many reciprocating machines. A few that come to mind: sewing machines, oil field pumps, internal combustion engines, steam engines, drum pumps, compressor pumps mechianical clocks and I suppose some types of dildos. We don't think of them or label them as reciprocating machines but they are by definition reciprocating machines. I guess my objection to the term "Reciprocating Machine" being used to discribe a group of machines that have a specific intended purpose which is not to simply sit there and reciprocate, but to work metal. Both sprung and unsprung hammers are made to work metal. If you want to narrow the definition of a specific type of machine, it seems that the name should discribe that difference.
I really need to go do something usefull.
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Old 12-20-2011, 05:51 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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Ok, let's see how this goes....

Sheet Metal Reciprocating Machine vs Sheet Metal Power Hammer (as opposed to blacksmith type). Bob, everything is in context of what is being discussed. We're not talking about dildos or oil wells. Since we're a sheet metal shaping environment, and this book is about sheet metal, I think you're drawing too fine a line.

Do you agree there is a significant difference between a Yoder, Pettengil, etc, and a Pullmax, Anoka, Trumph, etc? My only point is that their IS a significant difference and lumping them all together and calling them power hammers is misstatement and a disservice to his readers.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:36 PM
bobadame bobadame is offline
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Power hammers as opposed to hand hammers? Reciprocating machines as opposed to machines that don't reciprocate? Your objection was that the author didn't distinguish between "reciprocating machines" and power hammers and now I'm drawing too fine a line? It doesn't matter. It seems that pullmax calls this type of machine a "sheet metal working machine". Anoka calls their machine a power hammer. The Bailey machine could be called just about anything. If you are happy with the term reciprocating machine then I'll be happy too.
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Old 12-20-2011, 09:50 PM
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Marty Comstock Marty Comstock is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ByronR View Post
Right off I noticed he categorizes the Pullmax, Eckold Kraftformer and Piccolo as power hammers. He maintains that TIG is the preferred method of welding sheet metal, dismissing Oxy-Acetylene as creating “all kinds of distortion issues” and finds aluminum torch welding to be “closer to brazing than welding.”
Yes, I too have issue with calling a pullmax a power hammer. As well as Dismissing oxy-acet welding, on top of not understanding welding alum with gas.

I might be able to deal with one of these statements, but all three? This makes me less than interested in buying a book. I would look through it if one were handed to me, but id not be likely to recommend one because the author makes it a point to dismiss options of doing something so easily. A good author presents all or as many as he can. Knowledgeably.

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Old 12-20-2011, 10:28 PM
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Kerry Pinkerton Kerry Pinkerton is offline
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...If you are happy with the term reciprocating machine then I'll be happy too.
Well good. But it wasn't my idea to call them that.

To give credit (or blame if you wish) where it's due, back in the early days of MetalMeet, Wray Schelin had a thread where all this was beat to death. Reciprocating Machine was the name coined for sheet metal shaping machines that did not have an overstroke. Wray was a bit anal about using the correct language for the given tool and I drank the kool aid.
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