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  #1  
Old 08-01-2020, 11:20 AM
WCRiot WCRiot is offline
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Default Learning to English Wheel and need help

I've been playing with some 20ga steel sheetmetal. I'm looking to repair some pickup fenders but just practicing right now.


As you can see I have been wheeling on this piece quite a bit. I used a Shrinker on the sides to get the curve started then just wheeled and wheeled.


I can't get a radius to start in another axis. If you look at the second picture, the only radius in this side view is from what the Shrinker originally did.


Why am i not able to get a radius to form in the second axis? I sort of think its because the radius i have built up is so large at this point, but don't really know.


Your help would be appreciated. Hopefully i posted this in the correct forum.

IMG_2055.jpg

IMG_2057.jpg
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Last edited by Steve Hamilton; 08-01-2020 at 07:19 PM.
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Old 08-01-2020, 11:34 AM
blue62 blue62 is offline
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Are your lower anvils true radius anvils or do they have flats????
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Old 08-01-2020, 02:04 PM
WCRiot WCRiot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
Are your lower anvils true radius anvils or do they have flats????
They definitely have a radius on them. There is no flat that i visually see. The anvils I'm using right now are from Eastwood:
https://www.eastwood.com/eastwood-4-...ish-wheel.html


I am having only used the 3in radius wheel for now. It seems like this is the best for experimenting because i see the affects of Wheeling rather quickly
I might eventually buy the 2.5 and Flat from trick tools: https://www.trick-tools.com/2_inch_width_697
I like the flat for cleaning up hammering
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Last edited by WCRiot; 08-01-2020 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:02 PM
Charlie Myres Charlie Myres is offline
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Like you I am learning to wheel.

I have successfully made compound curves, by shaping the panel into a hollowing-block with a mallet and then smoothing the roughness out with the wheel.

Use light pressure, there is no need to wind the anvil up tight; judging by the track marks on your panel you have too much pressure.

I have also made a compound curve on a 1' x 1' test piece by only using the wheel, so that all four corners sat on the table. I need to find out how to wheel that test-piece flat again now,

Cheers Charlie
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Old 08-01-2020, 06:04 PM
blue62 blue62 is offline
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First thing I would do is go to youtube.
Search for Peter Tommasini.
View his video: light discussion about full radius anvils vs flats.
View everything he does.

Anvils with flats have a very narrow flat just in the center of the anvil.
My guess is that the Eastwood anvils have flats but that is just a guess on my part. Perhaps someone here on the forum will jump in and confirm one way or the other.

Then try to find some information on a wheeling exercise called shape in shape out.

Also shrinking the two edges has probably locked a certain amount of shape into the panel.

Get another piece about a foot square. mark all four edges an inch in from the edge.
wheel top to bottom from on side to the other.
Turn the panel 90 degrees and top to bottom from one side to the other again.
Go slow keep your tracks close together and stay off your one inch margin.
I repeat stay off the edges.
you should begin to see equal radius in both directions.

Perhaps purchase a book titled:

Learning the English Wheel
By William H. Longyard
published by Wolfgang publications Inc.

Bill put some good information in that book.
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Last edited by blue62; 08-01-2020 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 08-01-2020, 07:25 PM
WCRiot WCRiot is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blue62 View Post
First thing I would do is go to youtube.
Search for Peter Tommasini.
View his video: light discussion about full radius anvils vs flats.
View everything he does.

Anvils with flats have a very narrow flat just in the center of the anvil.
My guess is that the Eastwood anvils have flats but that is just a guess on my part. Perhaps someone here on the forum will jump in and confirm one way or the other.

Then try to find some information on a wheeling exercise called shape in shape out.

Also shrinking the two edges has probably locked a certain amount of shape into the panel.

Get another piece about a foot square. mark all four edges an inch in from the edge.
wheel top to bottom from on side to the other.
Turn the panel 90 degrees and top to bottom from one side to the other again.
Go slow keep your tracks close together and stay off your one inch margin.
I repeat stay off the edges.
you should begin to see equal radius in both directions.

Perhaps purchase a book titled:

Learning the English Wheel
By William H. Longyard
published by Wolfgang publications Inc.

Bill put some good information in that book.
I've been watching the Ron Covell DVDs. The scratch building a fender: http://covell.biz/scratch-building-a-fender/
And English Wheel basics: http://covell.biz/english-wheel-techniques/

Both are excellent and very helpful, but neither help with trouble shooting or understanding why things aren't going your way.
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Old 08-02-2020, 08:18 AM
Moving Molecules . Moving Molecules . is offline
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Have you a picture of what you want to achieve.
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  #8  
Old 08-31-2020, 05:53 PM
Chris_Hamilton Chris_Hamilton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WCRiot View Post
I've been playing with some 20ga steel sheetmetal. I'm looking to repair some pickup fenders but just practicing right now.


As you can see I have been wheeling on this piece quite a bit. I used a Shrinker on the sides to get the curve started then just wheeled and wheeled.


I can't get a radius to start in another axis. If you look at the second picture, the only radius in this side view is from what the Shrinker originally did.


Why am i not able to get a radius to form in the second axis? I sort of think its because the radius i have built up is so large at this point, but don't really know.


Your help would be appreciated. Hopefully i posted this in the correct forum.

Attachment 57057

Attachment 57058

Really surprised no one has pointed this out yet, it's a mistake trying to put all the shape in a panel like you are trying to replicate (wheelhouse) with wheeling alone. That isn't how it's done. Wheeling is used in concert with other techniques many times, especially with a panel with a lot of shape.

Specifically you should block along the middle/center of the panel using a blocking hammer and a sandbag. This will achieve the rough shape you are trying to duplicate. As you are doing this shrink the edges where it puckers and use the wheel to smooth out the "walnuts" from blocking.
Keep repeating this till you get the shape you want. Taking profiles from the part you are trying to make will help you gauge your progress.

Look into some videos that are available. Will help you understand the basics of shaping. Cheaper than a Class and will help you learn and understand so much more when you do take a class in person.

David Gardiner's DVD ----- https://www.classicmetalshaping.co.uk/dvd/
Peter Tommasini's DVD Set 1-10 ----- http://www.handbuilt.net.au/dvds.html
Kent White's Videos ------ https://www.tinmantech.com/products/dvds/

Start with David Gardiner's he gives an nice overview and gives you a lot to think about in his DVD.
Then watch Peter's. Learn from The Master. He covers basic concepts early on and then in later DVD's build a 1/4 panel in one piece with nothing more than hand tools and a wheel.

You will learn so much from those two guys.

Kent White is active on this board his DVD's are awesome as well and cover a variety of topics. Highly recommended.

You gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run. This is very true of metalshaping. Too many focus on the machines without understanding many of the principles of shaping. David Gardiner makes a point of saying just that in his video. Watch those videos and once you understand them you will have a firm grasp on the principles and more. If you are serious about this it will be money well spent.
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  #9  
Old 08-31-2020, 07:39 PM
abarthdave abarthdave is offline
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I have seen some people just let the sheet glide across the wheels

and others that have grabbed the sides of the sheet and muscled it thru the wheels pushing the edges downward some to help put in the shape ,

so how much gliding and how much muscle !

Thanks
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Old 08-31-2020, 09:36 PM
Chris_Hamilton Chris_Hamilton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abarthdave View Post
I have seen some people just let the sheet glide across the wheels

and others that have grabbed the sides of the sheet and muscled it thru the wheels pushing the edges downward some to help put in the shape ,

so how much gliding and how much muscle !

Thanks
Technique you are describing is called pumping. It has it's place but again you are not going to wheel and shrink alone a panel like he is trying to make. Wheeling alone (or combined with shrinking) will not make deep shapes like that. Perhaps you could but it would take so long and thin the metal so much that it is completely impractical. He needs shape in both the horizontal and vertical and pumping alone won't give him that.

You should make a paper pattern of the part, noting where shrinking is required and stretching (along the center) Use the pattern to cut your blank, make profiles of the shape as well. Block the along the center or where the shape is required, shrink the edges, where it puckers, as you go along. Wheel it to smooth out the lumps.

Wheeling alone is suitable for gentle compound curves and forming some reverse curves but not deep shapes like a wheel well housing.
A different shape but the same principle would be a motorcycle tank. You don't try to put all the shape in it from wheeling alone. You want to form the rough shape by blocking and shrinking the edges then use the wheel to planish or smooth the shape you've created.
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