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  #11  
Old 08-31-2020, 11:23 AM
weldtoride weldtoride is offline
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Default John Glover's book

As for your most recent questions in post #10 regarding your pics, I will defer to others more experienced than I, as I am still learning myself.

It looks to me like you are making great strides, however.

In response to your original post, I don't want to take away from any of the excellent references already mentioned above. I would simply like to add John Glover's self-published book to the list. In it, he prescribes a series of practice exercises that have taught me a lot. One of them begins with a square flat sheet of steel, (as it reacts slower than aluminum, I use 12-14"); Glover shows in line drawings the pattern he uses to raise the center, and how to "chase shape".

Rather than have the learner make a series of candy dishes, Glover's next lesson describes how to return the just dished sheet to flat. For me that part of the exercise brought on a world of discovery.
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  #12  
Old 08-31-2020, 04:09 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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Originally Posted by weldtoride View Post
.....

Rather than have the learner make a series of candy dishes, Glover's next lesson describes how to return the just dished sheet to flat. For me that part of the exercise brought on a world of discovery.
This^^^ is what helped me and is still great practice for me. Peter taught us this basic exercise in his class before we moved on to more complicated tasks.
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  #13  
Old 08-31-2020, 05:53 PM
Chris_Hamilton Chris_Hamilton is offline
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Originally Posted by WCRiot View Post
I've been playing with some 20ga steel sheetmetal. I'm looking to repair some pickup fenders but just practicing right now.


As you can see I have been wheeling on this piece quite a bit. I used a Shrinker on the sides to get the curve started then just wheeled and wheeled.


I can't get a radius to start in another axis. If you look at the second picture, the only radius in this side view is from what the Shrinker originally did.


Why am i not able to get a radius to form in the second axis? I sort of think its because the radius i have built up is so large at this point, but don't really know.


Your help would be appreciated. Hopefully i posted this in the correct forum.

Attachment 57057

Attachment 57058

Really surprised no one has pointed this out yet, it's a mistake trying to put all the shape in a panel like you are trying to replicate (wheelhouse) with wheeling alone. That isn't how it's done. Wheeling is used in concert with other techniques many times, especially with a panel with a lot of shape.

Specifically you should block along the middle/center of the panel using a blocking hammer and a sandbag. This will achieve the rough shape you are trying to duplicate. As you are doing this shrink the edges where it puckers and use the wheel to smooth out the "walnuts" from blocking.
Keep repeating this till you get the shape you want. Taking profiles from the part you are trying to make will help you gauge your progress.

Look into some videos that are available. Will help you understand the basics of shaping. Cheaper than a Class and will help you learn and understand so much more when you do take a class in person.

David Gardiner's DVD ----- https://www.classicmetalshaping.co.uk/dvd/
Peter Tommasini's DVD Set 1-10 ----- http://www.handbuilt.net.au/dvds.html
Kent White's Videos ------ https://www.tinmantech.com/products/dvds/

Start with David Gardiner's he gives an nice overview and gives you a lot to think about in his DVD.
Then watch Peter's. Learn from The Master. He covers basic concepts early on and then in later DVD's build a 1/4 panel in one piece with nothing more than hand tools and a wheel.

You will learn so much from those two guys.

Kent White is active on this board his DVD's are awesome as well and cover a variety of topics. Highly recommended.

You gotta crawl before you can walk and walk before you can run. This is very true of metalshaping. Too many focus on the machines without understanding many of the principles of shaping. David Gardiner makes a point of saying just that in his video. Watch those videos and once you understand them you will have a firm grasp on the principles and more. If you are serious about this it will be money well spent.
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  #14  
Old 08-31-2020, 07:39 PM
abarthdave abarthdave is offline
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I have seen some people just let the sheet glide across the wheels

and others that have grabbed the sides of the sheet and muscled it thru the wheels pushing the edges downward some to help put in the shape ,

so how much gliding and how much muscle !

Thanks
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  #15  
Old 08-31-2020, 09:36 PM
Chris_Hamilton Chris_Hamilton is offline
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Originally Posted by abarthdave View Post
I have seen some people just let the sheet glide across the wheels

and others that have grabbed the sides of the sheet and muscled it thru the wheels pushing the edges downward some to help put in the shape ,

so how much gliding and how much muscle !

Thanks
Technique you are describing is called pumping. It has it's place but again you are not going to wheel and shrink alone a panel like he is trying to make. Wheeling alone (or combined with shrinking) will not make deep shapes like that. Perhaps you could but it would take so long and thin the metal so much that it is completely impractical. He needs shape in both the horizontal and vertical and pumping alone won't give him that.

You should make a paper pattern of the part, noting where shrinking is required and stretching (along the center) Use the pattern to cut your blank, make profiles of the shape as well. Block the along the center or where the shape is required, shrink the edges, where it puckers, as you go along. Wheel it to smooth out the lumps.

Wheeling alone is suitable for gentle compound curves and forming some reverse curves but not deep shapes like a wheel well housing.
A different shape but the same principle would be a motorcycle tank. You don't try to put all the shape in it from wheeling alone. You want to form the rough shape by blocking and shrinking the edges then use the wheel to planish or smooth the shape you've created.
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  #16  
Old 09-01-2020, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by WCRiot View Post
Hopefully some people are still reading this thread. I've made some progress and got some of the basics down. I don't want to screw up this current panel so need some advice. The outer edge is flared outwards a bit. I need to bring it in/down but don't want to create a bulge where the radius is as that is fitting pretty nice.
If you look at the picture with the red lines drawn I am thinking of rolling along the length of the panel with the 4inch or 6inch radius to hopefully bring that outer edge closer to the work piece.

I am not concerned with that wave portion of the edge. I will shrink the high spots and bring all the waves back in line.

What do you think? is this the correct approach?

I think you should put down the shrinker.. For a bulbous panel like that, sure, shrinking may gather what appears excess metal at the edges, but once you've run out of throat depth on your shrinker you'll start to notice puckers at the end of the shrink. These can be challenging to remove. Looking at this picture:



If the panel is touching where the cleco's are and sitting out from the fender at the edge, imo you need more shape where it is touching until such time as the outside touches on it's own accord without resorting to linear shrinking. A panel like that is not where you want the linear shrink, as it should be a progressive shrink like you get from a tuck, more on the outside that tapers off to nothing as you get closer to the inner part of the panel. Not a shrink that stops abruptly as you show there. SO if you can't readily add tapered shrinks, do the opposite. And given the fact that stretching by blocking is easier and more effective than the shrinking, make the parts that are touching more bulbous (add more shape) using your wheel and/or in conjunction with blocking as Chris pointed out, until the entire panel is laying down properly.
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Last edited by MP&C; 09-01-2020 at 06:00 AM.
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  #17  
Old 09-02-2020, 01:43 PM
WCRiot WCRiot is offline
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Originally Posted by MP&C View Post
I think you should put down the shrinker.. For a bulbous panel like that, sure, shrinking may gather what appears excess metal at the edges, but once you've run out of throat depth on your shrinker you'll start to notice puckers at the end of the shrink. These can be challenging to remove. Looking at this picture:



If the panel is touching where the cleco's are and sitting out from the fender at the edge, imo you need more shape where it is touching until such time as the outside touches on it's own accord without resorting to linear shrinking. A panel like that is not where you want the linear shrink, as it should be a progressive shrink like you get from a tuck, more on the outside that tapers off to nothing as you get closer to the inner part of the panel. Not a shrink that stops abruptly as you show there. SO if you can't readily add tapered shrinks, do the opposite. And given the fact that stretching by blocking is easier and more effective than the shrinking, make the parts that are touching more bulbous (add more shape) using your wheel and/or in conjunction with blocking as Chris pointed out, until the entire panel is laying down properly.
I had done this previously. The area where the Clecos are is the center line of the fender or the highest arch point or highest crown. What happens when i raise the area where the clecos are i do get the metal to touch the radius'd edge of the fender but then it is too high in that center line portion.

By the way, i follow you guys in IG
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  #18  
Old 09-02-2020, 02:04 PM
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In basic terms, whatever is touching is what needs more shape until EVERYTHING is touching. This may explain better, if both edges were in the air, and the center was touching, well the center needs more shape to allow the outside edges to come down. Thanks for the follow!
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Last edited by MP&C; 09-02-2020 at 02:07 PM.
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  #19  
Old 09-04-2020, 06:40 PM
WCRiot WCRiot is offline
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I made some progress the other night. Looking at the first picture I wheeled in a different direction than i had been. I used a larger radius wheel, i believe it was the 6inch.
This helped some.

But then look at the second picture. I went tot he Shrinker to try and get rid of those wavy spots along that edge. And that created a pinch line and screwed up all my progress.

So i went back at it and got it pretty close again. I will do what MP&C says and hope that bring things together.

I almost feel like i need a flat wheel to flatten out that edge that would be closer to the wheel well.

IMG_2265.jpg

IMG_2266.jpg
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Last edited by Steve Hamilton; 09-04-2020 at 09:31 PM.
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  #20  
Old 09-04-2020, 08:21 PM
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123pugsy 123pugsy is offline
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If you manage to get the edges sitting down all around the perimeter of that panel, you may be no where closer to finishing the part than you are now.
Take some small balls of modelling clay and place them in random places under your patch when you think you're done. If they don't squish down to 1/32" thick, you have too much crown in the middle.

What you need are some profile gauges. Since you have a shrinker, they are easy to make from strips of steel/aluminum.
Make lines on your fender with numbers corresponding to your profile guages. Make the same lines on your panel. Using these will tell you where you need more or less crown.

If you have too much crown in the middle, you need to wheel the outboard edges. Not only the edges, blend inwards but not all the way to the center again as that adds crown and you're right back to where you started.

The exercise mentioned about putting a crown into a 12" square and then making it flat again will help you learn exactly what needs to be done to get it to where it needs to go. (I really need to try this myself, so yes, I'm guilty of bypassing something so important)
I think I will show this exercise at my upcoming meet.
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