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  #11  
Old 07-17-2022, 04:55 PM
tom walker tom walker is offline
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Originally Posted by sumtu View Post
Tom could you explain the EDTA and citric acid concocion more please thanks
Sum Tu, please use this link for more info on using EDTA for rust removal.
https://youtu.be/f9kBdJQMPPI
Tom
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  #12  
Old 07-19-2022, 11:11 PM
weldtoride weldtoride is offline
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Default My 2 cents and a cautionary tale

I started with vinegar, then tried molasses, and now currently I am a fan of vitamin C.

Molasses worked better than vinegar for me. I bought it reasonably at a local feed mill where its sold as a food additive for animals. Ours sells it in reused gallon milk jugs for around $4/gallon, or will fill a larger container you bring.
I experimented with several different concentrations, and Molasses worked well. It did what most folks down here in the WorldWideWabbit hole said it would.

As I was warned, I learned firsthand that molasses has an eventual half-life after which it begins to run its own interesting experiments, but these are in the field of bio-science. When it did that and became an unwelcome life form in my basement (I had started in winter) I realized I didn't want to put gallons and gallons of that mixture that into my septic system. Those of you with septic systems know that they can be discerning about things like that. Better to not try my own molasses/septic experiment.

I live semi-rural on 5 acres. We mow about 1 and leave plenty to grow naturally. No problem finding a place to let the molasses return harmlessly to the earth I thought, as I was walking into our wooded area with 2 five gallon buckets of what was once molasses, but now apparently was reinventing itself.

Right about then I noticed that both my dogs were following me with more than casual interest.... I now had to consider at least 3 possible outcomes of dumping the solution within roaming reach of my canine companions, none of them good.

1: Dogs eat the molasses soaked vegetation and it causes untold gastronomic hell for them and consequently, me. 2: Dogs find molasses unpalatable but do love the stink (dogs love to roll in stink) and rolling in it causes a different kind of hell, or 3: Dogs do both

Fortunately, one of our fence lines borders a farm field that wasn't planted that year.

Nowadays, I like Vitamin C. It's cheap and works well, and the dogs aren't interested when I dump it in our woods. I confess to buying it in powdered 10 pound bags from that rich jerk who upended everyone's local economies and made local book stores extinct.

The cautionary part for those who don't have dogs, that I learned the hard way, and I haven't seen in the literature is: never put a spring into an acid solution. I ruined a nice set of old dividing calipers from a yard sale in Molasses. When the curved flat spring snapped right away after its bath, I initially attributed it to old age as I hadn't really used it before treating it in molasses. Not being the sharpest tack on the Christmas tree, I repeated the mistake with another, sadly this time 2, pairs of slightly rusted dividers in vitamin C. Three broken divider springs later the bulb finally lit: acid causes damage to spring steel.

Something I learned decades ago in my apprentice days then came to mind about hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement is the reason impact sockets are never chrome plated. Those of us versed in stick welding also are aware of why welding rods should be kept bone dry. Motorcyclists, racers, and others are aware that chrome plating can weaken metals through hydrogen embrittlement so choose your chrome shop carefully.

I am not a metallurgist, but I did play one on the web. Turns out acid exposure from pickling or etching is another source of hydrogen permeating into metal, making it brittle.

I still buy probably too many old tools at sales, but anything hardened like hammers, chisels, etc. gets the rust cleaned off by abrasion nowadays.
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Last edited by weldtoride; 07-19-2022 at 11:14 PM. Reason: didnt look like what I typed
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  #13  
Old 07-20-2022, 12:51 AM
steve.murphy steve.murphy is offline
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I found when leaving some cast iron in the molasses bath for an extended period (forgetting it was in there) it developed micro pitting of the surfaces like maybe it was eating the carbon in the base metal.
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  #14  
Old 07-21-2022, 12:36 PM
norson norson is offline
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Are you sure you mean vitamin "c"??? More details please.
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  #15  
Old 07-21-2022, 01:08 PM
weldtoride weldtoride is offline
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Default Ascorbic acid

Yes, Vitamin C is ascorbic acid. Learned decades ago when I had backyard pool that it took rust stains and mineral accumulations off the pool liner and was pretty innocuous to use. Also use it now to de-calcify my hot tub heating coil.

It's sold in powdered food-grade bulk form for cooking and canning, but also sold in pool supply centers for cleaning.

I think it's the same chemistry that explains age-old tip for using lemons to clean countertop stains.

Molasses contains a mix of acids but is pretty acidic, probably why it reacts with iron.

If you want to fall down a new WorldWideWabbit hole, search: vitamin c + rust.
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Last edited by weldtoride; 07-21-2022 at 01:19 PM.
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  #16  
Old 07-21-2022, 05:44 PM
cliffrod cliffrod is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by weldtoride View Post
Something I learned decades ago in my apprentice days then came to mind about hydrogen embrittlement. Hydrogen embrittlement is the reason impact sockets are never chrome plated. Those of us versed in stick welding also are aware of why welding rods should be kept bone dry. Motorcyclists, racers, and others are aware that chrome plating can weaken metals through hydrogen embrittlement so choose your chrome shop carefully..
Gotta laugh at ^^this. The first pic of an English Wheel that I remember seeing was in a 1987 magazine that featured Jay Leno’s 427 s/c cobra clone and his motorcycle collection. He said when he started making $$, he got some Brough Superior motorcycles. During the resto work, he decided the exposed valve springs would look even better if they were chromed…. While riding down the freeway at speed, he said he heard this “zing” and similar noises of things going past his head just as his bike started to stop running.

He said it was an expensive lesson and he didn’t chrome the valve springs during the next rebuild.
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  #17  
Old 07-21-2022, 06:43 PM
crystallographic crystallographic is offline
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Working around crews who raced boats and autos and modified mechanical components included hydrogen embrittlement.
Aside from not exposing tender springy parts to chromium plating, seems another way to de-embrittle after chromium exposure: a one hour oven bake at 350F.
Also good for hard chrome.
Race crews seemed to catch on to this pretty good during 70's and 80's .... I'd overhear their chitchat about such avoidance and then gradually seemed commonplace.
Choices exist, fortunately. Info is available.

(Cryo is another nice method for upping longevity under loads.)
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  #18  
Old 07-22-2022, 06:41 PM
hillman hillman is offline
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People also ask

What is the difference between ascorbic and citric acid?

Summary: Ascorbic acid is found in citrus fruits as well as citric acid,

But Citric acid does not contain Vitamin C.

Citric acid is man-made, hence, synthetic.

Ascorbic acid is natural,

Ascorbic acid is a great preservative.
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Last edited by hillman; 07-22-2022 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Spelling
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  #19  
Old 07-22-2022, 09:47 PM
Marc Bourget Marc Bourget is offline
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Citric Acid is found in nature. Usually found in various vegetables and fruits like lemons, oranges, the tomato has a higher amount of citric acid.


It's a chain molecule with one more oxygen atom. Ascorbic differs by having 5 carbon ring and 4 terminal -OH groups compared to Citric's 3.
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